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Outdoor gig minimum

#82
Russell L said:
Well, I'm not buying just for one particular gig, but rather trying to get something that will generally cover most situations. Like I said, the more I think about it, if it's a large outdoor thing I'm sure PA support will be available, so I don't even know why I'm worried about it.

"sparktone," I have played many outdoor gigs with my Trace Elliot 115 at 200w without PA support and did alright when things weren't too loud, also with the old Peavey Mark IV and just one 115 cab (my 115s weren't the deep kind, and just had Scorpions in them). I don't have thatpeavey rig anymore, but that ok, I don't wanna carry it.

Just trying to get going with this new small stuff. I've been impressed with my Markbass CMD 121H combo, but then again I'm not in a metal band. Everything I do right now is oldies, some jazz, some country, nothing overly loud.

I'm still debating, though, because now if I get the extra 112 cab I'll be in even deeper if I decide it's not gonna work. Tonight's the night to order, my wife says. I might best take advantage of it. Either that or just hold off until after tomorrow's outdoor gig, and think some more.

You guys have helped the thinking process a lot. Thanks to all!
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I'm in a fairly similar situation since our band is planning several outdoor festivals in the event that we actually get a summer here in the PacNW.

My thinking is that if a lot of volume is needed, then the PA can handle that chore. I'll be running a 2x112 setup for stage monitoring.

I figure that setup will be loud enough to hear myself over the thousands of screaming fans.;):rolleyes:
 
#84
When my last band played out doors(2005/2008) we ran 4 Carvin 1503 mains and 4 18in subs driven by Carvin DCM 2500 and DCM2000 power amps plus stage amps, and in ear monitors.
It did us well
My rig ?
A Carvin R1000/W/ a peavey 1810 cab
 
#85
fishstix said:
The voicing of the Schroeder will help a lot. I get away with my 1212L and a LMII at 90% of our outdoor gigs PA or not. If I need more, my 21012 is the next choice and my 810e as a final option. I could go bigger (easily) but then phase issues and the such come into play. I even question mixing the 10s and 12 in my 21012 cab but it seems to work fine.
A lot of it has to do with tone preferences and realizing what you hear on stage will not be what's heard out front. Just keep real expectations of your gear throughout the band and you'll be fine. We work about 150 of our 170 gigs in a year with Mackies on a stick indoor and out. It's fine as long we're not expecting several hundred in the crowd or to put on a metal or hip hop concert. At a large festival gig, we bring different more appropriate gear.
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That is reassuring, thanks. I've been doing a lot of reading the last couple of days and it seems the lower mid-range frequencies have a lot to do with the level of bass people people perceive outdoors. The Schroeder's hump in that range apparently make it a very good cab for this kind of situation and the MB I know is similar.

One thing I've wondered is with the phasing issues you mentioned, why the traditional 410 and 810 became so popular in the first place. It seems you lose a fair amount of valuable spl's in that configuration through cancellation as opposed to a line array or staggered arrangement.

What I don't understand is the voicing of different speaker sizes and how they match or mismatch together, I've seen people say that 12's and 15's can be a bad sonic 'fit' for instance but I don't quite see why that is.

And one thing I have noticed while playing around with a 6" Micromark combo in m y living room is that when I point it into the space between my chairs and the wall, a 5x5 3 sided box essentially, the tone really smooths out and I get some fairly deep resonating tones that I can actually feel in my chest in certain frequencies and I don't get that from much bigger amps. Would it make sense to experiment with partially backing an amp like that outdoors to get some of that effect and to redirect sound back where you want it instead of losing most of it to open air?
 
#86
NBW, I hope you get the summer and the screaming fans.

Munji, yeah, 750w and a 410 sounds good, except for toting it.

Duke, I played for a year-and-a-half with a band that provided something like an 18 with a ten (or was it a 12?) cab along with an 800RB. It really sounded good, but I didn't have to move it, ever.

LOL, I remember when I was young I thought that moving a bunch of heavy sound equipment would keep me in shape. Maybe it did, but now it's a cause for pain. Argh.
 
#87
Big Brother said:
That is reassuring, thanks. I've been doing a lot of reading the last couple of days and it seems the lower mid-range frequencies have a lot to do with the level of bass people people perceive outdoors. The Schroeder's hump in that range apparently make it a very good cab for this kind of situation and the MB I know is similar.

One thing I've wondered is with the phasing issues you mentioned, why the traditional 410 and 810 became so popular in the first place. It seems you lose a fair amount of valuable spl's in that configuration through cancellation as opposed to a line array or staggered arrangement.

What I don't understand is the voicing of different speaker sizes and how they match or mismatch together, I've seen people say that 12's and 15's can be a bad sonic 'fit' for instance but I don't quite see why that is.

And one thing I have noticed while playing around with a 6" Micromark combo in m y living room is that when I point it into the space between my chairs and the wall, a 5x5 3 sided box essentially, the tone really smooths out and I get some fairly deep resonating tones that I can actually feel in my chest in certain frequencies and I don't get that from much bigger amps. Would it make sense to experiment with partially backing an amp like that outdoors to get some of that effect and to redirect sound back where you want it instead of losing most of it to open air?
Click to expand...

Man, you are hitting on something I was thinking about the other day. This is crazy, but I might just mock it up:

Consider a classical string quartet playing for 1000 folks at the Hollywood Bowl. Or, how many times have you seen an acoustical group perform with a shell behind them?

To wit, at the museum where I work my day job there is an exhibit called the "Whisper Dish." Basically, it looks like two 6 ft. radar bowls facing each other and spaced apart in a large room (they used to be about fifty feet apart, there is one at the Smithsonian that is about a quarter-mile apart). Anyway, there is nothing electrical, or anything about it. One person can actually whisper in one and another person at the other one can hear it. No kidding (I don't know how loud you have to speak into the one at the Smithsonian).

So, after thinking about outdoor gigs, and considering the new knowledge I just learned about quarter loading, when you are up against a wall, I've wondered what effect it would have to put something behind an amp. Or would it be negligible unless the thing was huge.

But, I think that what you have noticed, Big Brother at home with your little amp illustrates that there is an effect on the sound based on the surroundings. Of course, it's what putting small speakers into bigger cabs is all about, too. Sometimes it's not the speaker size, but the cab size that brings out the lows (with sufficient wattage, of course).

I'm no phycicist, though, and don't know that much technically about sound reproduction. Just some of my wacky thoughts. Feel free to kick me in the butt if it's just ridiculous.:hmm:
 
#89
Big Brother said:
What I don't understand is the voicing of different speaker sizes and how they match or mismatch together, I've seen people say that 12's and 15's can be a bad sonic 'fit' for instance but I don't quite see why that is.
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It's not so much a 12 and 15 thing as an overall phase response thing (a subject I neglected until recently to learn). Take two different cabinets of any type(s) and chances are they will have different phase responses in the various frequencies, so there may be some frequencies which get partially canceled or augmented. This doesn't mean you need to get out a scope, but sometimes using your ears will help you determine if two cabs sound good together or not. Just be aware to adjust the volume, as we tend to hear "louder as better". My BE 15 and 12 sound great together to me, and I like it better than two of either, although sometimes i bring two 15s or two 12s. I have no idea what phase response issues (if any) are going on with those cabs, but in the end they sound OK. Often you may not be so lucky. If you like the sound of a particular cab, your best bet would be to get multiples of it and stack vertically.
 
#90
Russell L said:
Man, you are hitting on something I was thinking about the other day. This is crazy, but I might just mock it up:

Consider a classical string quartet playing for 1000 folks at the Hollywood Bowl. Or, how many times have you seen an acoustical group perform with a shell behind them?

To wit, at the museum where I work my day job there is an exhibit called the "Whisper Dish." Basically, it looks like two 6 ft. radar bowls facing each other and spaced apart in a large room (they used to be about fifty feet apart, there is one at the Smithsonian that is about a quarter-mile apart). Anyway, there is nothing electrical, or anything about it. One person can actually whisper in one and another person at the other one can hear it. No kidding (I don't know how loud you have to speak into the one at the Smithsonian).
Click to expand...

Interesting, I've been thinking about all the times I've noticed this phenomenon in real life recently. I recall a formal Christmas party I attended several years ago on a paddleboat in particular, it had a large arched top dining room and it didn't take long for people to start hearing 'voices' during dinner.

Ordinary conversations on the other side of the room that you couldn't hear 10 feet away were being amplified and focused onto different spots in the room such that it sounded like people sitting 75-100 feet apart were at the same table, it was like someone talking directly in your ear.
 
#93
My band discovered the lake thing, so we play the cruise boat parties. Because we like to be known as "the loud band" around here.

It has an additional benefit. The guitarists who are lesser examples the skinny-string breed, when they get carried away, tend to treat the deck as a stage - and the lake as a mosh pit they are jumping into.

This has really solved some personnel problems.
 
#95
greenboy said:
My band discovered the lake thing, so we play the cruise boat parties. Because we like to be known as "the loud band" around here.

It has an additional benefit. The guitarists who are lesser examples the skinny-string breed, when they get carried away, tend to treat the deck as a stage - and the lake as a mosh pit they are jumping into.

This has really solved some personnel problems.
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Maybe that is how Flathead lake really got it's name. :smug:
 
#98
Downunderwonder said:
that's a pretty big portable wall.
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I get asked regularly about the feasibility of a portable wall for outdoor gigs. It isn't, just bring more cabs.
SurferJoe46 said:
Ever been on a bass boat on a quiet lake? You can hear the other boats if people are talking too. A quarter mile away and you can hear them talking about fish, beer and wimmen just as well as if you were moored alongside them.

No 'foci' there - right?
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Part of that is the lack of anything to reflect, diffract or absorb sound. The other part is that in the high humidity layer just above the water the speed of sound is higher, so it travels faster and is louder than otherwise at a distance. The same thing happens over normal ground in fog.
 
#99
I am playing an outdoor gig tonight and as a result of reading this thread, I am taking both my cabs... a powerhouse 212 (4ohm) and a kappa 3015 loaded diesel 115 (8ohm) and stack them.

So– what should I put on top?

My head will be a Fathom/M6 (set to 2 ohms).

I know it's not a conventional pairing, but it's what I've got, so I thought I'd give it a try.
 

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