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Overrated bass players

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bucephylus said:
OK, did you use the transcriptions from SITSOM, or did you go by ear from the recording?

I actually used a GuitarPro tab. I dunno if it's completely accurate, but it sure sounded right to me . . . all the other ones that I've used have been spot-on.

Once again, I don't think Jamerson sucks. He doesn't, obviously, or he never would've been requested to play on so many records. But I remain absolutely uninterested in and unimpressed by any of his bass-playing, because it's either completely unremarkable or just plain boring. At least, to me it is. I would love it if someone could point me to something that would really show why Jamerson was so amazing, because I really don't get it at all.
 
RSchuster said:
I actually used a GuitarPro tab. I dunno if it's completely accurate, but it sure sounded right to me . . . all the other ones that I've used have been spot-on.

Once again, I don't think Jamerson sucks. He doesn't, obviously, or he never would've been requested to play on so many records. But I remain absolutely uninterested in and unimpressed by any of his bass-playing, because it's either completely unremarkable or just plain boring. At least, to me it is. I would love it if someone could point me to something that would really show why Jamerson was so amazing, because I really don't get it at all.
My best advice would be to track down "Standing in the Shadows of Motown," by Allan Slutsky (alias Dr. Hot Licks), and work through a few of the more interesting transcriptions. Home Cookin', for example, is very nearly a Charlie Parker-esque line on the bass all the way through. VERY challenging, and very interesting. You will find that where you might have thought the line was repetitive, it is anything but. Jamerson tosses in lick after lick, all of which are different, cool hooks. The two main things you would get for your efforts are an understanding of solid groove, and an incredible addition to your vocabulary of great licks. They seem endless.

I am not familiar with GuitarPro tab, but unless they copied off of Slutzky, they'll have none of the gems that make this so worthwhile. I could be wrong, but I believe this would be worth your effort and a perhaps a pleasant surprise. You might still decide you don't care for the style of music, but you would get a lot out of your effort anyway; which is broadly useful, even if for Crimso music etc.
 
To me, the thing that transcends everything else about Jamerson's playing is his aura of great strength. He was like Ray Brown in that regard-- a completely centered force of nature.
If you're devoted to a particular bass tone, technique or even genre, such a broad, hard-to-pin-down characteristic as "strength" may be overlooked when you're checking out Jamerson.
With threads like these, I usually chalk it all up to opinion, but this one's a stumper! RSchuster, are you sure you have the same Jamerson? ;)
 
I'm quite sure. I looked up a discography of records that he played on and listened to quite a few of them (I'd obviously already heard some). Not one of them stood out to me. I knew I'd be quite alone in holding this opinion, but I really get nothing out of any of the stuff that I've heard; when I notice the bass, it sounds like my idea of a generic background bassline.

I'll look for the Slutsky transcriptions and see if maybe that'll do it.
 
Yeah, the transcriptions will certainly highlight his flair for syncopation, as well as for coming up with all kinds of subtle variations, unlikely chromatic passing tones, etc.
But even when he was just playing simple written parts that were handed to him, as on "My Girl" by the Temptations, "I Can't Help Myself" by the Four Tops or "You Can't Hurry Love" by the Supremes, he played them with great authority, and that's part of the picture, as well. It's that "strength" factor that I referred to.
Anyway, have fun with it!
 
RSchuster said:
I'm quite sure. I looked up a discography of records that he played on and listened to quite a few of them (I'd obviously already heard some). Not one of them stood out to me. I knew I'd be quite alone in holding this opinion, but I really get nothing out of any of the stuff that I've heard; when I notice the bass, it sounds like my idea of a generic background bassline.

I'll look for the Slutsky transcriptions and see if maybe that'll do it.

Just transcribe them by ear, and you'll see...

There are a LOT of chromaticism approaching chord tones, plenty of syncopation, and other VERY important tools for a bass player in order to create and develop lines.(even Jaco "borrowed" tons of material from him)

People on this thread saying that he is overrated do not understand his enormous sense of musicality IMO.
Please try to hear those songs without the bass line, and see what tourns them into a "hit";)
 
juanete said:
Just transcribe them by ear, and you'll see...

There are a LOT of chromaticism approaching chord tones, plenty of syncopation, and other VERY important tools for a bass player in order to create and develop lines.(even Jaco "borrowed" tons of material from him)

People on this thread saying that he is overrated do not understand his enormous sense of musicality IMO.
Please try to hear those songs without the bass line, and see what tourns them into a "hit";)
Certainly transcription by ear is a good exercise. In this case, however, due to the recording quality available, that is not the best choice. The point here is to make sure you get the details, and Slutzky already did this for you.

I'm not saying transcription isn't good practice, just in this particular case, I don't recommend it as the best choice. My 2c.
 
I would say, read Slutsky's transcriptions, and listen to the recordings! The intro to "My Girl" isn't much on paper, but Jamerson's feel on the recording is all important.
(Then again, RSchuster said that he's heard the recordings and they leave him cold, so...??)
 
i dont think you even need to bring up niki six. hel probably tell you himself, that he sucks. if you ever watch the motly crue behind the music, the producer talks about how ****ty he is. even his band admits that hes only good for performing.

with that said, im sure hes picked up atleast some skill after 20+years of playing but its really shooting fish in a barrel to pick on him
 
how do I "judge" a bassist? What I can say is that first of all, if you don't like or identify with the music he's/she's playing, you likely won't like the bass part or at least find it more difficult to see it's intensity or playability than if you really like the music. Secondly, from a personal standpoint, I don't like and never liked the old Motown "thump" but I absolutely find Jamerson's parts the most difficult of "commericial music" I've ever played. My comment here is the more I like a bassist's tone, the more inclined I am to "rate" him higher than someone who's tone I don't like. For instance, I'll be the first to trash Stanley Clark and Marcus Miller here....I don't like either of 'em....but to say they're "overrated" ....who the heck am I to make that kinda statement? I've bought two CD's each of both and couldn't remember a bass part off of either of 'em if my life depended on it, yet I can both play and "recite" parts or most of literally everything in the Standing in the Shadows of Motown.

My orientation has always been danceable top 40, crossover music.....if the tune isn't danceable at a consersative event, wedding, corporate party etc. or isn't well known, that's where I draw the line of what I listen to. I don't know a single lick Fieldy or Les Claypool has played and probably never will, but I won't say that they're over or under rated 'cause again, even if I knew their entire discography's, who the heck am I to "judge" them.

I also never heard a lick of tony Levin. I've heard Victor Wooten three times, twice with Bela Fleck and once with his own band, I didn't like him at all. Why? Because I didn't like the music the bands were doing. I personally also, don't like "lead bass"....doesn't mean a bass solo isn't cool or that I don't love a great musical bassline that counteracts the other instruments etc. I find the Flecktones BORING. Every tune sounds the same, sorta like rap does to me.

I've heard Roy Drummund and Lonnie Plaxico in intimate small club settings. I was bored in 10 minutes. It was like shock and awe bass playing with never a groove understandable by anyone other than musical geniuses, I guess. I was bored with the Yellowjackets and Sprio Gyra, Norman Brown and other "smoothe jazz" guys. But give me Ray Brown with Oscar Peterson where what he's playing is "just outta: reach or Jamerson where once you figure out his part on "it's ashame" for the first verse, he changes it for the 2nd and then the third and within each verse it's changed slightly.

So....in summary of ranting and raving....the Oberlin Ohio dude here doesn't like Motown. He's entitled to feel that way, and therefore it makes perfect sense to me that he doesn't have the Jamerson love that a lot of us others feel.

There's tons of bassists that I've either heard or never been exposed to that make a contribution. How can any of us say that Les Claypool, for instance is overrated? I'll bet that many many of us on this board haven't heard a note he's ever played or are so lightly exposed that their "opinions" can't be backed by any factual information.

So....do, say as you will. It's all in the ears of the beholder.

LKaye
 
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I have agree that i personally don't find Marcus Miller and Stanely Clark... entertaining? Doesn't mean the boys don't got chops, because they certainly do. But, while i realize people think the world of him... and alot of people don't think they should, Victor Wooten is one hell of a bassist. His grooves aren't to complex, I mean after all, I can figure them out, and I'm no musical genius. But after seeing him play live... I personally think he's a great a bass player, with alot to offer. While his vocals... well aren't the greatest- he still tries.

But the bassists that I personally don't like, are basically all Prog guys (one prog guy that I do LOVE is Geddy Lee though...) So, while this man has some impressive chops, Johnny Myung, I feel is overrated- I'm sure the man can groove like a mofo, but he doesn't do it, and from whats displayed in DT, it seems like fast run after fast run- and no feel.
Also, whoever the guys name from Coheed and Cambria. I don't really like him- alot of my friends think the world of him, and that band- but I don't get it. I think it's more of me not liking the band more than him. But who knows.

my .02
Dan
 
ebladeboi123 said:
But the bassists that I personally don't like, are basically all Prog guys (one prog guy that I do LOVE is Geddy Lee though...) So, while this man has some impressive chops, Johnny Myung, I feel is overrated- I'm sure the man can groove like a mofo, but he doesn't do it, and from whats displayed in DT, it seems like fast run after fast run- and no feel.
Also, whoever the guys name from Coheed and Cambria. I don't really like him- alot of my friends think the world of him, and that band- but I don't get it. I think it's more of me not liking the band more than him. But who knows.

my .02
Dan

Hehehehe. See, these are a lot of the guys I like. Geddy Lee is pretty much my favorite bassist. I'm hugely into Dream Theater, and Coheed & Cambria, I feel, are one of the best bands ever, which is probably why I appreciate Mike Todd's playing so much.

I do see your point about Myung, though. He's immensely talented, but 3/4 of his basslines are just . . . um . . . emotionless. As a huge fan of Myung and Dream Theater, it's so disappointing to hear something as gorgeous as the bassline to "Scarred" and then to hear him on another song doing straight 16th notes doubling the guitar on the B-string for an 8-minute meandering metal jam. His output just isn't consistent . . . sometimes he's absolutely gorgeous to listen to, sometimes he's just BLAH.

I also find it a bit funny that I find James Jamerson, someone who is often cited as the EPITOME of soulful bass playing, quite bland and lifeless, and then, at the same time, I adore Geddy Lee, who is often cited by others as playing soulless wankery. Of course, I'm gonna disagree with that criticism, because it just isn't true, but then again, a lot of all of this does indeed have to do with the kind of music being played in the first place, as others have mentioned.

Motown is kinda dull to me in the first place . . . if you can't get into a song, it feels soulless, no matter if it is or not . . . in fact, the "soul" of a song is often completely subjective based on who's listening. Jamerson's playing probably just washes over me because I don't like the song that he's playing on in the first place. Tons of people wonder what the big deal is about Geddy Lee because they can't stand Rush's music. I don't get it at all when people talk about Rush being "wanky", and others don't understand how I could possibly think Jamerson is overrated. I'm willing to give Jamerson another shot, just because I really wanna see what's there that everyone else seems to already get, just like I want everyone to "get" the music that I find inspirational.

Yeah, that was a bit rambling.
 
RSchuster said:
See, these are a lot of the guys I like. Geddy Lee is pretty much my favorite bassist. I'm hugely into Dream Theater, and Coheed & Cambria, I feel, are one of the best bands ever, which is probably why I appreciate Mike Todd's playing so much.
I've appreciated your openess and the back and forth on SITSOM. I would only add that I went through a big King Crimson / Yes / Genesis phase, during which I might have said some of what you have indicated. Back then Rush was a bunch of young punks coming up. Funny how times change.

Anyway, keep an open mind and keep learning. All roads lead to Rome.
 
Larry Kaye said:
I also never heard a lick of tony Levin.

I can't believe that. Have you ever heard anything of Peter Gabriel's solo stuff, or "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" by Pink Floyd? Or what about Bowie's "Heathen"? Or "Brothers In Arms" by Dire Straits? Or "Legend" and "Double Fantasy" by John Lennon? I can't imagine you haven't heard any of this. That's all (or at least mostly) Tony Levin.
 
RSchuster said:
Motown is kinda dull to me in the first place . . . if you can't get into a song, it feels soulless, no matter if it is or not . . . in fact, the "soul" of a song is often completely subjective based on who's listening. Jamerson's playing probably just washes over me because I don't like the song that he's playing on in the first place. Tons of people wonder what the big deal is about Geddy Lee because they can't stand Rush's music. I don't get it at all when people talk about Rush being "wanky", and others don't understand how I could possibly think Jamerson is overrated. I'm willing to give Jamerson another shot, just because I really wanna see what's there that everyone else seems to already get, just like I want everyone to "get" the music that I find inspirational.

Yeah, that was a bit rambling.

I'm sort of jumping in at the end here. . . your point about the "soul" of a song is well taken - no doubt certain genres of music (and individual songs) speak volumes to some while doing absolutely nothing for others. I haven't been playing a terribly long time so please take what I say with a grain of salt, or perhaps a tablespoon would be better. ;)

Check out the song "How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone" if you have not already. That may have been mentioned, I have not actually perused all the posts. I initially ran into the same wall when it comes to Jamerson. Being young and having only been playing for 5-6 years, I grew up listening to Pink Floyd/Led Zeppelin as "classic rock," older stuff. The first bassist I actually payed attention to was Stefan Lessard from Dave Matthews Band :hiding:. As I started to learn about funk, jazz, R&B, etc... I was really getting into Larry Graham, Oteil Burbridge, Vic, and Jaco so I wanted to hear Jamerson who inspired all these guys. Initially, I think I expected to hear some sort of virtuosic melding of all these cats who claimed him as an influence, I didn't really understand what I was listening for. At that time, I was still very much caught up in the flash, fast runs, solos, and the like.

Anyway, what I discovered was that Jamerson was (arguably, I suppose) the first to bring a distinctive style to the electric bass guitar. Additionally, he was implementing some stylistic devices that just weren't common to upright or electric playing, he was innovating. I'm not suggesting that you're young, ignorant, and/or don't already know all of what I'm saying here, so please don't misunderstand and think that I'm projecting my immaturity onto this situation. I'm only trying to explain why it took me a bit to comprehend why people are so enamoured of him. I simply did not understand what I was listening to. Initially it was the same with Anthony Jackson. I had to spend some time with him (his playing) to understand the innovative genius behind his playing.

There are many Motown songs that still do nothing for me musically, but I definitely believe that Jamerson gave even those some bounce, flavor, and creative infusion. Knowing that he wasn't emmulating anyone on the electric when he came up with some of his more colorful lines - whew, that alone disqualifies him from being part of this thread, in my mind. Hope that made some sense............ I'm tired.:rollno:
 
I'd have to say Gene Simmons, his bass playing sucks, and people worship him. Sid Vicious(rip) also a terrible bassist who people just think is god. i know these two aren't really popular for there bass playing, but they play bass and are way overrated.
 
bucephylus said:
I've appreciated your openess and the back and forth on SITSOM. I would only add that I went through a big King Crimson / Yes / Genesis phase, during which I might have said some of what you have indicated. Back then Rush was a bunch of young punks coming up. Funny how times change.

Anyway, keep an open mind and keep learning. All roads lead to Rome.

Hehehe. You just named three more of my favorite bands . . . I grew up with Genesis, but the other two I "discovered" only four years ago or so. Mike Rutherford is pretty much my prime example of an "underrated" bassist. But yeah, thanks for not going crazy on me and trying to help me out with this. Usually when I talk about this stuff, people accuse me of "not recognizing what good bass-playing is", or of having "poor taste", which is always infuriating, because it does nothing to help me or anyone else. Thanks!
 
Believe it regarding Tony Levin. My repetoire is extremely vast in nature. I know the chords arrangements and am pretty darn accurate, within reason, stylistically and on many specific bass parts recorded between 1964 and 1980ish + have extensive experience from original fake book and Real Book I tunes + immense amount of standards from the 30's through 50's. I played accordion starting in 1956, guitar in 1962, and bass starting in 1964. So....I "grew up" and learned basslines starting with Motown and the British invasion.

With only a few exceptions, all the bands I've played in over the years have done other band's music, popular at the time to begin with and then more in the baby boomer. I am entrenched in groove. When one of the current bands I play in said they were doing Aerosmith, Metallica, Nickleback, Dave Mathews, along with more familiar to me artists like Hendrix, Cream, Allman Brothers. They do Kashmir. I've never the song before....these guys have the same reaction as you do.

As I mentioned the bulk, vast majority of what I listen to and/or play is more top 40 adult (40+ years old attendees or the one's paying us!!!) danceable music played typically at events, weddings etc. I guarantee you that most of the people hiring us have never heard of any groups that Tony Levin, Geddy Lee, John Myung, Victor Wooten, Stanley Clarlk, Jaco and most all the other "name" bassists play or have played in.

I know that's not an easy concept to understand, but you've not grown up with that kind of music. There is not a wedding type of band around that plays any of the above bassist's discographies. I've given up listening a long time ago to bassists or bands that don't play adult acceptable/event possible types of music. There's plenty of "meat" in doing as broad a variety of stuff that I have to do and know accurately in several keys, and I personally find the Jamerson lines as challenging technically as I care to persue. At least they make sense to me unlike the more modern jazz players like I mentioned in my last email.

Again, it all boils down to liking the music to start with. I grew up with Motown, rinky tinky Beatles, Stones, DC5, Disco, 70's classic rock and standards from 1930-mid 50's + jazz standards. Adding Peter Gabriel tunes to my repetoire will not get me more work....not here in Cleveland. I'm better off polishing up my 12 bar blues licks if I want to play more.

Larry
 
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