Overrated bass players

[RSchuster]

As I mentioned the bulk, vast majority of what I listen to and/or play is more top 40 adult (40+ years old attendees or the one's paying us!!!) danceable music played typically at events, weddings etc. I guarantee you that most of the people hiring us have never heard of any groups that Tony Levin, Geddy Lee, John Myung, Victor Wooten, Stanley Clarlk, Jaco and most all the other "name" bassists play or have played in.

Tony Levin played extensively with John Lennon. I imagine you've heard something from Lennon's solo career, and so have all these other people. I can understand not knowing the other stuff, but you'd be the first person I've ever heard of ever who has not heard any John Lennon if that's the case.

 

[dougjwray]

Yes, he played beautifully on "Watching the Wheels" as well as everything else on "Double Fantasy". ("Just Like Starting Over", "Woman" etc.).

 

[alanbass1]

IMHO the MOST over rated bass player is Alan D'Alvarez....period

 

[Larry Kaye]

played bass on most of the Motown hits or that Joe Osborn played on over 150 top 10 singles in the 60's and 70's, they and I don't know Tony Levin played on several/many John Lennon tunes. So just as you, RSCHUSTER don't find much emotional connection to Jamerson's lines, I obviously ddin't find much soul and connection in Tony Levin's lines in these Lennon tunes I have heard before.

It's also becoming pretty obvious that guys don't know the general repetoire of what bands typically play or don't play at the type of gigs I and many others here in NE OHIO play.

John Lennon, most of the other Beatles as "single" acts including McCartney and Wings, Ringo, George, and as a group, the Beatles tunes in general are not typically played at weddings any more. The wedding group I'm in which is one of the busier and more successful ones in the NE Ohio area, only play "I saw her standing there." In my playing over 600 events in my career, I've never played a Lennon solo tune except "Woman". I've played "Something" and come to think of it several other very early Beatles tunes, mostly ballads, Like MIchelle as dinner music. As to whether I know who played bass on John Lennon's solo albums, is completely irrelovent to this discussion.

What I'm saying is four things: 1. Everyone is entitled to state who they like and don't like but should accompany it by why they feel that way....especially if it's a negative. 2. What really qualifies anyone here to state some other bassist is over or under rated? 3. That if, as a bassist, one likes the music/songs/specific tune, there's a higher liklihood that the that person will find something positive about the bass player or his line. 4. That if as a bassist you like the style and or tone of the bassist, you may overlook the style of music enough to be positive.

Now I'm sure there's several other really well known and unknown bassists that have recorded material that the general bass playing public doesn't know played that particular CD or individual tune or tunes. My comment about Tony Levin remains that there's nothing memorable bass playing-wise for me in what few tunes I may have heard his playing on, now that you pointed out some of his discography. I do remember in my college days or right after listening to King Crimson....again, I don't remember any of their tunes.

Have fun shredding this.

Larry

 

[Alan Vorse]

I've played Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer" in a cover band and we flooded the dance floor. I bet you could add that to a wedding/corporate event band's set list and get a positive response.

 

[Funkzfly]

hehe...I'm going to get on my soapbox for a moment here, so I apologise in advance

The more I actually read into this thread, the more I'm beginning to wonder where people actually earn any right in judging the skills of Jaco, Flea, James Jamerson (!), who ever and writing them off so easily, labelling them 'over-rated'. Ultimately, most Bassists will play to the best of their abilities, and should be judged by the music they make, not their technical ability...which IMO defies all sense...

For example....right now one of my favourite bass players is Guy Berryman from Coldplay. I find his playing to be very tasteful and well voiced. Most people wouldn't consider Guy a great Bass Player, but he's playing to the best of his abilities in a band that have made a hell of a lot of cash from their music, I think it's how a Bass Player fits into a band that makes him or her a special player...

On the subject of Jamerson...well, no offence but that's the most obsurd and ridiculous claim I've actually ever heard! Jamerson isn't over-rated. I can appriciate personal distaste of Motown's music BUT to label possibly the most innovative Bass Player of all time as over-rated is actually blantently disrespectful! Seriously...think of the actual impact he had on Bass Playing, it's practically unparalleled. I can get on board with dislike of Jamerson's music, but his impact was just too huge to write him off like that.

 

[dougjwray]

I'll bet 90% of the wedding reception attendees in Ohio know what's coming as soon as they hear the three-note bass intro to "My Girl." (Even if only 1% know Jamerson by name.)

 

[Supergroup]

I'd have to say ME. A lot of people think I am great but... I fake it most of the time. I don't argue with them though.

 

[Larry Kaye]

What's wrong with playing My Girl if done/sung/played "well?" There's a lotta other "cheap" songs that wedding bands play...Here's my list of favorites....and we play 'em too....

Brown Eyed Girl, Mustang Sally, Shout, At Last, Misty, SoulMan, Moondance and dozens and dozens more. But It's Alright. I'll be Around. Unforgettable. Mack the Knife, Zoot Suite Riot, Jump Jive and Wail. Everyone does 'em. Loveshack. Have I told you Lately that I love you.

How are we "different" from the other bands I've played with and heard at these affairs? Better, more authentic singing and playing of the recording. From the bass standpoint, not slapping every Motown tune when it wasn't there in the first place. Being heard clearly and distinctly on and off stage. Having a natural synch up with the drummer. Playing in and around the Groove and having GREAT TONE. The band as a whole EXCELLENT show/movement. Everyone has a natural good time....no synthetic attitude. We really do enjoy it. Great lead vocalists (4 of 'em) and in tune, every time harmony. Excellent soundtechs who adjust every tune and lighting if necessary.

I have no problem playing whatever WELL KNOWN tunes people will dance to. We are not going to play Peter Gabriel tunes unless a specific couple request it AND we can actually make it sound good. We'd prefer to play a CD instead even if we could replicate it. It doesn't matter what exceptions you guys come up with. We're not gonna play 'em because they don't fit into the general types of music we do. There's a lotta tunes that people CAN? dance to. They're not all great live songs and dance tunes.

My favorites in this category are My Own Worst Enemy and Semi Charmed Life. Every time I go hear my favorite local rock band, people go nuts when these tunes are played. Everyone's jumping up and down, acting punky, having a crazy time, but they ain't wearin' suits, formals, and tuxes, and we are playing really "highbrow" events. I've been in other wedding bands that play as many informal wedding receptions as black tie stuff, but even there, you play what's expected, but ya do it better, more professionally, present it better, look more like a showband doing the material, yet still sound tight, in tune, and ready to play.

BUT...every time we play My Girl, 3 notes or not, there's always a positive reaction, whether overdone by everyone else or not. I get my financial share, I'm happy, the people that hire us refer us to their friends and relatives, we get rebooked. It's a successful formula satifying the masses and not the exceptions to the rule. One tune will not make the band but it can break the band, at least for a set, maybe a night. We don't need to risk the formula of success. When the rules change, we'll adjust. If we need to learn 10 rap tunes in order to keep working, we'll learn 'em. Until then, Let's get it Started is it for a while. Peter Gabriel, Third eye Blind, Lit, and the other thousands of other choices will just have to be played by others at other venues.

Larry

 

[RSchuster]

played bass on most of the Motown hits or that Joe Osborn played on over 150 top 10 singles in the 60's and 70's, they and I don't know Tony Levin played on several/many John Lennon tunes. So just as you, RSCHUSTER don't find much emotional connection to Jamerson's lines, I obviously ddin't find much soul and connection in Tony Levin's lines in these Lennon tunes I have heard before.

It's also becoming pretty obvious that guys don't know the general repetoire of what bands typically play or don't play at the type of gigs I and many others here in NE OHIO play.

John Lennon, most of the other Beatles as "single" acts including McCartney and Wings, Ringo, George, and as a group, the Beatles tunes in general are not typically played at weddings any more. The wedding group I'm in which is one of the busier and more successful ones in the NE Ohio area, only play "I saw her standing there." In my playing over 600 events in my career, I've never played a Lennon solo tune except "Woman". I've played "Something" and come to think of it several other very early Beatles tunes, mostly ballads, Like MIchelle as dinner music. As to whether I know who played bass on John Lennon's solo albums, is completely irrelovent to this discussion.

What I'm saying is four things: 1. Everyone is entitled to state who they like and don't like but should accompany it by why they feel that way....especially if it's a negative. 2. What really qualifies anyone here to state some other bassist is over or under rated? 3. That if, as a bassist, one likes the music/songs/specific tune, there's a higher liklihood that the that person will find something positive about the bass player or his line. 4. That if as a bassist you like the style and or tone of the bassist, you may overlook the style of music enough to be positive.

Now I'm sure there's several other really well known and unknown bassists that have recorded material that the general bass playing public doesn't know played that particular CD or individual tune or tunes. My comment about Tony Levin remains that there's nothing memorable bass playing-wise for me in what few tunes I may have heard his playing on, now that you pointed out some of his discography. I do remember in my college days or right after listening to King Crimson....again, I don't remember any of their tunes.

Have fun shredding this.

Larry

I wasn't criticizing you at all for not knowing or not liking Tony Levin. My post was one of disbelief, not of disagreement with your opinion; I just thought it highly unlikely that you'd never heard his playing before, which is what you'd stated previously. Sorry if I came across as saying something else.

 

[RSchuster]

What's wrong with playing My Girl if done/sung/played "well?" There's a lotta other "cheap" songs that wedding bands play...Here's my list of favorites....and we play 'em too....

Brown Eyed Girl, Mustang Sally, Shout, At Last, Misty, SoulMan, Moondance and dozens and dozens more. But It's Alright. I'll be Around. Unforgettable. Mack the Knife, Zoot Suite Riot, Jump Jive and Wail. Everyone does 'em. Loveshack. Have I told you Lately that I love you.

How are we "different" from the other bands I've played with and heard at these affairs? Better, more authentic singing and playing of the recording. From the bass standpoint, not slapping every Motown tune when it wasn't there in the first place. Being heard clearly and distinctly on and off stage. Having a natural synch up with the drummer. Playing in and around the Groove and having GREAT TONE. The band as a whole EXCELLENT show/movement. Everyone has a natural good time....no synthetic attitude. We really do enjoy it. Great lead vocalists (4 of 'em) and in tune, every time harmony. Excellent soundtechs who adjust every tune and lighting if necessary.

I have no problem playing whatever WELL KNOWN tunes people will dance to. We are not going to play Peter Gabriel tunes unless a specific couple request it AND we can actually make it sound good. We'd prefer to play a CD instead even if we could replicate it. It doesn't matter what exceptions you guys come up with. We're not gonna play 'em because they don't fit into the general types of music we do. There's a lotta tunes that people CAN? dance to. They're not all great live songs and dance tunes.

My favorites in this category are My Own Worst Enemy and Semi Charmed Life. Every time I go hear my favorite local rock band, people go nuts when these tunes are played. Everyone's jumping up and down, acting punky, having a crazy time, but they ain't wearin' suits, formals, and tuxes, and we are playing really "highbrow" events. I've been in other wedding bands that play as many informal wedding receptions as black tie stuff, but even there, you play what's expected, but ya do it better, more professionally, present it better, look more like a showband doing the material, yet still sound tight, in tune, and ready to play.

BUT...every time we play My Girl, 3 notes or not, there's always a positive reaction, whether overdone by everyone else or not. I get my financial share, I'm happy, the people that hire us refer us to their friends and relatives, we get rebooked. It's a successful formula satifying the masses and not the exceptions to the rule. One tune will not make the band but it can break the band, at least for a set, maybe a night. We don't need to risk the formula of success. When the rules change, we'll adjust. If we need to learn 10 rap tunes in order to keep working, we'll learn 'em. Until then, Let's get it Started is it for a while. Peter Gabriel, Third eye Blind, Lit, and the other thousands of other choices will just have to be played by others at other venues.

Larry

I don't think anyone is telling you what to play or anything. Obviously, you play what you have to play because it's your job. I don't think anyone said otherwise . . .

 

[RSchuster]

On the subject of Jamerson...well, no offence but that's the most obsurd and ridiculous claim I've actually ever heard! Jamerson isn't over-rated. I can appriciate personal distaste of Motown's music BUT to label possibly the most innovative Bass Player of all time as over-rated is actually blantently disrespectful! Seriously...think of the actual impact he had on Bass Playing, it's practically unparalleled. I can get on board with dislike of Jamerson's music, but his impact was just too huge to write him off like that.

There's a huge difference between my thinking that he is overrated and someone claiming that he had no impact or influence on bass-playing. I never said that. Of course Jamerson had a huge impact on bass-playing; that's a historical fact. All I said was that I consider him overrated, particularly because everywhere I go, every time I talk about bass or basslines or bassists or bass-playing, someone inevitably tells me that I have no taste and that if I need to hear "real" bass, "tasteful" bass, and/or "perfect" bass (rather than the "fake", "tasteless", "inherently flawed" bass I apparently listen to), I should listen to Jamerson. So I did. And I went, "Um . . . what's the big deal?" Thankfully, pretty much everyone in this thread has been very respectful, which I am grateful for, as I get tired of justifying my musical tastes all the time, as do many others, I'm sure. I've been convinced to keep listening to James Jamerson's playing, despite disliking the genres of music he played in, because I want to "get it". I'm exceedingly sorry if I offended you for stating my opinion on a subjective issue.

 

[alanbass1]

hehe...I'm going to get on my soapbox for a moment here, so I apologise in advance

On the subject of Jamerson...well, no offence but that's the most obsurd and ridiculous claim I've actually ever heard! Jamerson isn't over-rated. I can appriciate personal distaste of Motown's music BUT to label possibly the most innovative Bass Player of all time as over-rated is actually blantently disrespectful! Seriously...think of the actual impact he had on Bass Playing, it's practically unparalleled. I can get on board with dislike of Jamerson's music, but his impact was just too huge to write him off like that.

+1 on this sentiment. Motown just wouldn't sound the same without those basslines. Beatles songs would not sound the same without McCartney. Over-rated!!!! They were part of great music. Technique is just one part of the equation and this is what, in my opinion, is over rated. people who believe that technique alone makes a great musician is really off the mark. You need to include timing, feel and the ability to play the right thing and not get in the way of the song, but to enhance it. Also, having a 'voice' in the way a person plays an instrument (i.e. readily recognised no matter what music they are playing) starts to distinguish the greats from the many excellent musicians. Lastly, the ability to play music that stirs emotion and gets people to buy the CD. That's what McCartney, Jamerson, Matlock, Santana, Coltrane, Williams, Ogdon have all done within their respective fields.

As I said in my previous post, the only over rated bass player I know is Alan D'Alvarez. All the rest have done what this person just could not achieve.

 

[dougjwray]

What's wrong with playing My Girl if done/sung/played "well?"

Larry

Hey man, I'm on your side in this discussion...
The point I was trying to make was that even when playing only 3 notes-- even when the 3 notes were handed to him on paper, as they probably were in this case -- Jamerson played them with enough feel and authority to sear them into the brains of the masses. That's a mark of genius, in my opinion. I've played lots of wedding gigs, too, and have had to play "My Girl", and believe me, those 3 notes are not to be taken lightly!

 

[Funkzfly]

There's a huge difference between my thinking that he is overrated and someone claiming that he had no impact or influence on bass-playing. I never said that. Of course Jamerson had a huge impact on bass-playing; that's a historical fact. All I said was that I consider him overrated, particularly because everywhere I go, every time I talk about bass or basslines or bassists or bass-playing, someone inevitably tells me that I have no taste and that if I need to hear "real" bass, "tasteful" bass, and/or "perfect" bass (rather than the "fake", "tasteless", "inherently flawed" bass I apparently listen to), I should listen to Jamerson. So I did. And I went, "Um . . . what's the big deal?" Thankfully, pretty much everyone in this thread has been very respectful, which I am grateful for, as I get tired of justifying my musical tastes all the time, as do many others, I'm sure. I've been convinced to keep listening to James Jamerson's playing, despite disliking the genres of music he played in, because I want to "get it". I'm exceedingly sorry if I offended you for stating my opinion on a subjective issue.

You didn't offend me. I just got onto this post, saw Jamerson's name mentioned and knew instantly that all posts like this one serve only to annoy people by stating your own opinion, and at the end of the day, that's all it is.

I do, however, think you may have answered your own questioning of Jamerson's bass playing by admitting that Jamerson did have a huge impact on bass playing, probably more than anyone else. There were a lot of electric bassists before Jamerson, but I still like to think of him as 'the first', because he practically layed down the rules and influenced both directly and indirectly, almost every single bass player since.

In fact, in relation to the subject, I was talking to someone the other day who thought that The Beatles were over rated...his argument being that they 'just sound like everyone else'. There's a simple answer to that...it's because they were the first people to do what people have been copying ever since. It's very much the same with James Jamerson...you've got to appriciate (if nothing else) that he was the first person to do what everyone else has been doing ever since. How anyone can label that over-rated is beyond me.

I don't judge your taste in music or your opinion, because that would be unfair of me. But bottom line, Jamerson isn't over-rated.

 

[dougjwray]

I'll take one more stab at this, building off of Gruuv's post from the other day in which he talked about how he initially ran into a wall with Jamerson, too, because he was young and expecting to hear Wooten, Jaco, etc.
I'm not young (I heard those Motown songs the first time around) but I didn't fully appreciate Jamerson until about 15 years ago, when I had to play "What's Going On" in a cover band.
When I was a kid, my heroes were guys like Jack Bruce, McCartney and Berry Oakley (Allman Brothers), who, as rock band members, had total freedom to play what they wanted. Jack Bruce was a special favorite because of his aggressiveness, almost always playing to the limits of his physical ability and imagination, and even occasionally resorting to dissonance to challenge Clapton during Cream's live jams (see: "I'm So Glad").
Or, I dug groove "parts players" like Larry Graham, Duck Dunn, or Bernard Edwards of Chic, who came up with clever riffs and played them with consistency and accuracy.
Jamerson, to me, was merely a "company man" who "punched the clock" like your average symphony orchestra bassist. It's funny, because Motown songs killed me when I was a kid, and I don't think I even realized it was largely Jamerson who was doing the killing!
Anyway, I finally had to learn "What's Going On", and when I studied what Jamerson had done, he hit me like the proverbial ton of bricks. He was taking the middle course-- not playing stream-of-consciousness stuff, nor hammering away on a riff, but taking motifs and spinning out little variations on them as the song went on. With total control, he was composing and improvising at the same time... and with that organic tone, and nuances that were so musical and which fit the ebb and flow of the singing perfectly. I knew I had a big learning experience ahead of me. Playing the transcription wouldn't have been unthinkable, since his performance was perfect, but I wouldn't do that. I had to try to study with my ears and attempt to acquire some of his discipline and musicality.
Hope this helps...

 

[RSchuster]

+1 on this sentiment. Motown just wouldn't sound the same without those basslines. Beatles songs would not sound the same without McCartney. Over-rated!!!! They were part of great music. Technique is just one part of the equation and this is what, in my opinion, is over rated. people who believe that technique alone makes a great musician is really off the mark. You need to include timing, feel and the ability to play the right thing and not get in the way of the song, but to enhance it. Also, having a 'voice' in the way a person plays an instrument (i.e. readily recognised no matter what music they are playing) starts to distinguish the greats from the many excellent musicians. Lastly, the ability to play music that stirs emotion and gets people to buy the CD.

The thing is, it wasn't a question of technique vs. feeling. Great technique and great feeling are not mutually exclusive, and I certainly don't gravitate towards one or the other in my preferences . . . no one can say, with a straight face, that Adam Clayton has blazing technique . . .

I really think this statement: "Lastly, the ability to play music that stirs emotion", is the key. If it touches you emotionally, then there's gotta be some sort of feeling there, and the bassist has done a good job. Jamerson stirs emotion for many, but not for me. Likewise, there are plenty of bassists who stir emotion for me who do nothing for others.

I was actually thinking about what someone just posted, about how people say they don't like the Beatles because they sound like everyone else, and it's because everyone copied the Beatles. I realized that that's the feeling I get with James Jamerson . . . everyone copied him, which is why I get no feeling from it; I've heard it a million times before from everyone who copied him. The thing is, I didn't like the copies either. So maybe that explains that.

 

[Larry Kaye]

I'm the first one to admit I live in a bass vacuum. There's just so many tunes that are of the genre that creates emotional ties for me that I don't need to be exposed to other posers or "innovators" to feel challenged and renewed in my enthusiasm and energy towards bass. I can listen to Ray Brown and Paul Chambers all day and pick up little licks and nuances or copy certain limited pieces note for note but I don't understand on the fly why they played what they did when they did it. It's the same way I feel about Jamerson..someone earlier really explained it well...not freelancing from the get go....not playing the same lick over and over again even if it's a killer one....yet creating new variations on the fly.

But to say who's overrated and underated.....again.....I feel that's just not the way to do this. You should state who you like and who you don't and why. But I can't hold back any longer....I feel that Wayman Tisdale is the most overrated bassist out there.....trite parts, elementary school level solos, meaningless songs and music, that is unless you're an insomniac looking for a cure, non-emotional playing, copycat all bottom and highs slap tone with no definition when not slapping....I mean there's nothing there for me at all.....but that's the key.....it's just my opinion...so I agree totally with Rschuster in that if the player whether great or not in the eyes of others does or doesn't do something to evoke emotion in you is what determines how you evaluate them, like them, consider them over or under rated, along with other factors, sure.....but do you get off on listening to them play or not.

I generally get off on Motown, Disco, R&B, Blues, and "conservative...old school" jazz players. I like hearing syncopation and interesting/more unique rhythm patterns, more than notes that I don't understand why they follow each other. I'm not into listening to melody players in other genre's but I like to try to add melodic runs to the above styles to make things interesting for me when playing out. I like to take traditionally melodic playing and add a more unpredictable rhythm to it to make my style different. But if it's done all the time, without being willing to ever do the basics from the recording, people stop dancing and listening....they don't necessarily understand or know why, but it we're playing rhythmically in left field or notewise in outer space in cover bands....just watch the reaction....maybe a musician friend or two might think it's cool, but no one else will.

Point....again.....it's what we individually like and are comfortable with. Rating bassists or any musician is totally subjective based on the taste, knowledge, and much more than I can describe of the listener.

Larry

 

[RoMeRz]

Way back on page 1 of this thread Bryan suggested Stu Hamm as an overrated. This surprised me greatly but what I found even more surprising was that not a single response was posted in his defense!!! How can a discussion on Paul McCartney go on for days and days yet this comment is untouched?
Obviously I disagree with Bryans opinion and I would love to hear why I seem to be the only one.

I was going to post something defending Stu Hamm - but then I realised, I didn't need to. Its a silly comment.

 

[badstonebass]

EVERYBODY is underrated by some....and OVERRATED by others.

IMO those players who know their role in a band wether at guitar, drums, or bass are those that should get the props.

CLIFF WILLIAMS would sound like crap in RUSH.....however GEDDY LEE would RUIN AC/DC.

LES CLAYPOOL really is only effective in his own little world. He would stink up the joint playing with JUDAS PRIEST.

Truly GREAT bands are a combination of people that meld together to make something special. Sometimes players put aside their EGOS and play what the music demands.

Players like IAN HILL, MIKE ANTHONY, and CLIFF WILLIAMS play what makes the songs better. Anything else would be ridiculous.

If a band (or player) is successful they serve a purpose AND they are good. Wether I/YOU like them or not.

Jealousy is the main reason for music snobbery. The comment about how Nikki Sixx holds his bass is a perfect example. Who CARES!? Fingers, picks, slapping, thumping whatever. It's all good......what's overrated anyway?

IMO overrated is sitting in your bedroom, playin bass, turning your nose up at music and somehow feeling superior. I prefer to get out and play. I may not be the "best" bassist out there, but I have a lot of fun and play a LOT of gigs.

Overrated IMO

Steve Harris - never like his lines
Chris Squier - never liked his tone


Underrated

Mel Schacher
Gene Simmons