Is anyone that plays in legitimate live settings doing this without an an amp? Note that I'm not asking about active basses through passive DIs or the other way around; I'm specifically speaking to those of you who run passive basses into passive DI's with no other bass signal. I play in churches with very nice PA equipment in auditoriums and am constantly asked to do this. Anyone else out there in a similar situation?
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Passive bass> passive DI> sound board
- Thread starter perkjos
- Start date
I've done it. Usually my p bass into a radial. It's not a bad setup really, as long as you can hear yourself and its a good sound man.
It works fine. I suppose the loading of the passive DI changes the sound of the passive bass a bit but in a typical live small bar/outdoor gig no big deal. Been there, done that...
Why are you distinguishing between active basses and DIs? Level is level where a PA in concerned. That's what input gain controls on the mixing console are for. if you're looking for tone differences with the passives and actives, that's another issue. We use Radial J48s, although I carry my own Radial JDI. I like what it does.
I both play and mix at our church We have severals bassists that play through a variety of active and passive DIs, although we will soon have Reddi DIs at every campus (I can't wait!!)
I've had some basses that did not like a passive DI and a lot that it made no difference on. The last bass I bumped into where the passive DI loaded it down and badly affected the tone was actually an Ibanez active. If the tone of your bass doesn't doesn't radically change between an active and a passive DI then don't sweat it. If it does, then get your own DI so you can be sure of the signal that FOH will receive. They really don't cost that much.
OK that's weird.
also, anybody with a plain ol' boss TU2 tuner in line is golden, that pedal buffers the signal to where you can go straight to the passive DI with no risk of pickup loading tone loss.
I agree. It was very weird and something I hadn't run into before. I mixed that particular bass several times and despaired of getting a decent tone out of it. Swapped the radial Pro DI for a Pro48 and all of a sudden it was golden. Definitely not the usual outcome with an active bass.
I've been told that running a passive bass into a passive DI does not push a strong enough signal to the PA to capture the true color of the bass's signal. I tend to believe this because when I compare my sound in the house when playing through an active DI compared to a passive DI, the tone is much fuller. I've used different types of active DI's (some of which I like better than others) but regardless of which one I use, I always prefer the passive bass/ active DI combo than passive/ passive. It also seems (in my experience) like the guys who go passive / passive are the ones that either don't care enough about their sound to invest in a good DI or they can't hear the difference. This last sentence is why I'm asking the question. I wonder if I've unfairly correlated bad bass players/ sound guys with this live bass set up or if it's more common than I realize.
To me the most important factor in this discussion is WHO asked you to do this. If the sound guy knows what he is doing then trust him and get to playing bass. If he is just a warm body playing the knobs then respectfully negotiate with him. Running a "regular" DI is somewhat old school thinking but it stems from allowing the sound man total control over your tone.
I run through the line out on my Mesa Walkabout all the time because I like how it colors my tone. That being said I ALWAYS ask EVERY sound man I work with if they need anything different from me. I start pretty flat and allow them to make the call on how it EQs out ultimately.
Almost every time if you work with them they will work with you.
I run through the line out on my Mesa Walkabout all the time because I like how it colors my tone. That being said I ALWAYS ask EVERY sound man I work with if they need anything different from me. I start pretty flat and allow them to make the call on how it EQs out ultimately.
Almost every time if you work with them they will work with you.
"I've been told that running a passive bass into a passive DI does not push a strong enough signal to the PA to capture the true color of the bass's signal."
I disagree with this as a blanket statement. It depends on the transformer used in the DI. Jensen or Lundahl-equipped DIs are actually preferred by some guys because of their quality of tone, even though Radial does have a note about using active DIs with active basses. I'm not questioning what you are hearing, but make sure that what you are hearing is not simply a hotter signal from the active DI giving you the fuller-sound perception.
"I tend to believe this because when I compare my sound in the house when playing through an active DI compared to a passive DI, the tone is much fuller. I've used different types of active DI's (some of which I like better than others) but regardless of which one I use, I always prefer the passive bass/ active DI combo than passive/ passive."
This is fine as it is your perception, which is the most important to you. It's your ears and your tone. You are smart to trust them, even though someone else may disagree because of their own experiences
"It also seems (in my experience) like the guys who go passive / passive are the ones that either don't care enough about their sound to invest in a good DI or they can't hear the difference."
It may seem that way to you, but as a guy with 20+ years of mixing all kinds of bands on the national level, plus being the FOH guy for several rocking Black Gospel groups and several orchestras in the area, I assure you, I certainly work hard at a good tone. I am meticulous with the condition of my basses, their action set-ups, string condition, I even have a regimen to protect the callouses on my plucking hand. And my choice of the Radial JDI over the J48 is a result of comparing the two side by side. Perhaps you've seen guys with really cheap DIs that are giving you this perception. There's $40 DIs out that make a bass sound absolutely wretched, no doubt.
"This last sentence is why I'm asking the question. I wonder if I've unfairly correlated bad bass players/ sound guys with this live bass set up or if it's more common than I realize."
I'm not sure I follow where this last sentence is going. In the live sound world, I could give you 20+ reasons for a bad bass tone, starting with a player's weak playing technique to poorly set-up PA speakers and everything in between.
The only side-by-side DI comparison I've ever done is with a Radial JDI vs a Radial J48. I own the JDIs (three of them) and the church has the J48s. The basses are my AM STD Precision 5 and my 98 EB MM Stingray H5.
The JDI, to my ears, with both basses, my ears only, no one else listening, sounded a little warmer to me, listening through my 1964 Quad IEMs, my Sony MDR-7506 headphones, and a pair of the church's Westone UE3 IEMs (I think that's the model name - a generic 3-driver model). The J48 sounded fine, I certainly don't go to the trouble of bringing my JDIs with me and swap out the J48. Plus the J48 has more output, which the sound guys like. Still, for sound quality's sake, I still preferred the JDI.
Now.....Having said all of this, I recently played through a Reddi DI. Talk about a massive game-changer!! Since I've been asking around about this DI, I've had touring guys tell me that they did away with the bass mic on their rig because this DI sounded so good. Check it out and start saving your money. The church ordered one last week and I think I'll be playing through it tomorrow night!
I disagree with this as a blanket statement. It depends on the transformer used in the DI. Jensen or Lundahl-equipped DIs are actually preferred by some guys because of their quality of tone, even though Radial does have a note about using active DIs with active basses. I'm not questioning what you are hearing, but make sure that what you are hearing is not simply a hotter signal from the active DI giving you the fuller-sound perception.
"I tend to believe this because when I compare my sound in the house when playing through an active DI compared to a passive DI, the tone is much fuller. I've used different types of active DI's (some of which I like better than others) but regardless of which one I use, I always prefer the passive bass/ active DI combo than passive/ passive."
This is fine as it is your perception, which is the most important to you. It's your ears and your tone. You are smart to trust them, even though someone else may disagree because of their own experiences
"It also seems (in my experience) like the guys who go passive / passive are the ones that either don't care enough about their sound to invest in a good DI or they can't hear the difference."
It may seem that way to you, but as a guy with 20+ years of mixing all kinds of bands on the national level, plus being the FOH guy for several rocking Black Gospel groups and several orchestras in the area, I assure you, I certainly work hard at a good tone. I am meticulous with the condition of my basses, their action set-ups, string condition, I even have a regimen to protect the callouses on my plucking hand. And my choice of the Radial JDI over the J48 is a result of comparing the two side by side. Perhaps you've seen guys with really cheap DIs that are giving you this perception. There's $40 DIs out that make a bass sound absolutely wretched, no doubt.
"This last sentence is why I'm asking the question. I wonder if I've unfairly correlated bad bass players/ sound guys with this live bass set up or if it's more common than I realize."
I'm not sure I follow where this last sentence is going. In the live sound world, I could give you 20+ reasons for a bad bass tone, starting with a player's weak playing technique to poorly set-up PA speakers and everything in between.
The only side-by-side DI comparison I've ever done is with a Radial JDI vs a Radial J48. I own the JDIs (three of them) and the church has the J48s. The basses are my AM STD Precision 5 and my 98 EB MM Stingray H5.
The JDI, to my ears, with both basses, my ears only, no one else listening, sounded a little warmer to me, listening through my 1964 Quad IEMs, my Sony MDR-7506 headphones, and a pair of the church's Westone UE3 IEMs (I think that's the model name - a generic 3-driver model). The J48 sounded fine, I certainly don't go to the trouble of bringing my JDIs with me and swap out the J48. Plus the J48 has more output, which the sound guys like. Still, for sound quality's sake, I still preferred the JDI.
Now.....Having said all of this, I recently played through a Reddi DI. Talk about a massive game-changer!! Since I've been asking around about this DI, I've had touring guys tell me that they did away with the bass mic on their rig because this DI sounded so good. Check it out and start saving your money. The church ordered one last week and I think I'll be playing through it tomorrow night!
I don't think that's true. Every dynamic microphone has a passive DI transformer in it which drives an even lower level signal to the mixing board.
Lots of interesting comments. Thanks for the input. The general consensus seems to be that this passive/ passive type setup with no on stage amp is ok and that using an active DI vs a passive DI is more of a matter of preference than necessity. That raises my next question: why do some manufacturers make active DI's that have very little tone coloration? If signal strength is not an issue when comparing active and passive di's (which is an idea that most of you seem to support) then there shouldn't be a need for a DI box that has an active preamp with little or no coloration. A good example would be the countryman type 85. It is active but won't color the tone very much. Why would someone drop the extra cash on one these compared to a nice passive DI when the only distinguishable difference is the presence of an active DI? Note that I'm not taking about active di's with additional features or a lot of tone coloration like a sansamp; this is purely a signal strength as translated to tone question.
Possibility 1
An active preamp helps their product achieve the uncolored tone
Possibility 2
"Active" looks good on a box and you can charge more for it
Signal strength i s bit of a red herring here. The mixing board is built to deal with that. The tools are there to deal with gain control for a very wide range of signal strength. It's really not an issue.
Active DI's present a different load to the pickups/electronics of the bass that CAN effect the tone. Some electronics handle the loads better than others. If your bass sounds "thin and weak" with a passive you can try a better passive DI. As GeriO pointed out, they are not all equal. Or you can try an active and see if that solves the problem.
On the question of coloration it's a matter of preference. Some people want the tone created by their bass to get to FOH without alteration. Countryman 85's and and Radial J48's make these people happy. Some like the sound that a good transformer can add to their signal chain. JDI to the rescue. Want the DI to help create the tone of your favorite tube amp. ry the REDDI. There's an active DI that definitely adds color. In the end, figure out what you want from a DI and bring that question to the table.
I've been meaning to try this very thing with the output of my Lectrosonics receiver. Just haven't gotten around to it.
