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passive basses

Brad Johnson said:
IME experience when I've used my active basses with the gain unboosted through tube amps they sound no different than in passive mode. AFAIK when they're run passive they're passive... correct me if I'm wrong.

Are you saying that an amp "has to" respond differently to an active bass in passive mode than a passive only? I'll admit I don't get that and it doesn't mirror my experience. Why would a bass with passive pickups in bypass mode necessarily be different than a bass with the same pickups without the preamp (that was bypassed)?


Well, as you say, the results are highly variable. It would depend on the particular pickups and the design of the particular amp. AND, obviously, the design of the active preamp. That's usually one of the most important factors. A "well designed" active preamp won't change your sound. But, there are still changes that occur "after" the preamp, like for instance in the instrument cable. Various cables can make a HUGE difference in the sound that results. The same cable that works well for an active instrument may sound horrible with a passive instrument, and vice versa. That has mostly do to with the transmission line properties of the instrument cable, relative to the source impedance, and the load impedance. In a poorly matched system, you may be losing a big part of your midrange signal, without even necessarily realizing it (as you say, having nothing to compare it to). Someone guided me through this experiment some months back, and I was totally amazed by the results. They astounded "even me", and I've been doing this bass thing for about thirty years now.

Here's what I'm saying: in a "well matched system", where all the pieces (pickups, preamp, cable, amp) dovetail, you can probably flip switches and tweak knobs ad nauseum and never suffer any significant dropouts or undesirable sonic changes. However, in real life, "most" systems aren't well matched. Most systems are built up piecemeal, and most salesmen don't even know what the concept means. Consider "hum" for example. You can take a bass that's perfectly quiet with one amp, plug it into a different amp, and it'll hum like crazy when you're walking around the room. I've done that thousands of times in my career. Usually that kind of thing happens with passive basses, just because of the antenna and transmission line properties of the pickup-cable system. Active basses are less prone to that, although the system still obeys all the basic laws of physics, but the source has the property that it isn't "as much" affected by the varying impedances along the line, so the sound "appears to" be more consistent. But, switch to a different cable, and the chances are good you'll hear some changes in the sound.

With passive instruments, you're more in the risk range, just because of the way the pickups are connected (ie one end is usually grounded), and the higher source impedance. The grounding thing is especially insidious. With a passive bass, you'd have to run a balanced line (like, and XLR mic cable) between the bass and the amp to address this problem. With an active bass, you just use a differential input preamp and you're home free. Why more manufacturers don't do this is beyond me. Les Paul knew about this issue, and countless others. But the industry has standardized on single ended connections, hence we often have buzzy systems.

What saves us, strangely enough, is that many systems aren't "good enough" to hear the difference. But take your bass into a studio and use an Avalon Vt737sp with it, and I guarantee you'll hear the difference. I'd bet a year's salary on it. I've heard it with my own two ears, and the results are absolutely consistent, it happens the same way every time.

Bottom line, one must design to one's ear. It doesn't make any sense to try to achieve "technical perfection", 'cause that may or may not relate to what one hears, and whether one thinks it's pleasant sounding or not. There's kinda two different things, there's the "tone" of the system, and there's the "operation" of the system. In a perfect world, those two would complement each other and the result would be synergy. In the real world, there's sometimes a tradeoff. For instance, in the real world, I'll take a quiet hum-free instrument over one that has perfect tone. Because, tone is subjective, and when you're in the heat of a gig, few people really pay attention to it anyway (except for the other bass players in the audience). But, hum is noticeable by everyone, and no one thinks it's pleasant.
 
I have both passive and active basses. I like them both. As in most everything, perfection is hard to achieve as so eloquently stated by NonQ (love reading your posts btw) and also Brad J had some very interesting and valuable points. Both of you Gentlemen are exactly that... and with many years of experience to share. Thanks a TON really.

I do love my Passive USA Lakland Joe with Lindy Fralins. Both of my excellent rigs sound great with it and the all tube amps I had were the same. It is however limited to a certain degree for me, but my style does not require a lot of variation to be honest. It cuts right through the mix but by itself isn't my favorite tones all the time... Now my new Sadowsky PJ/4 has a very nice active system that I'm getting used to right now and is very versitile. I used it last night on a first inside bar gig and it went very well. My drummer has a great ear and notices a lot of what is going on but did not detect anything really different in my bass tones... :rolleyes: I was trying to use everything available while still cutting the mix too. I did a lot of soley P bass and a nice mix of the J pup too. I got vast tonal variations and was very pleased, but as I said no one else even noticed. I must choose good tones because I always get raves about my sound if it's not drowned out by the kick. Any way I'm very happy with all my basses and it's hard to choose which one to play half the time. :D
 
My own opinion would be that an active bass with a passive bypass makes a lot of sense. Personally, I prefer a passive instrument and I can always find a sound I like using nothing more than a bass with two J-bass style pickups and a simple amp. Nonetheless I can see a lot of potential for great sounds with active circuitry. The nightmare is having a battery or preamp failure. The passive bypass takes care of that little objection and clears the way for even conservative players to feel comfortable with a bass so revolutionary as to need batteries. :)
 
The biggest advantage that hasn't been gone over is : it's easy to fit the passive tone controls in a tight space. I recently wired a jazz with a Sadowsky pre w/vintage tone control, and it was TIGHT. It was all I could do to fit everything in the narrow control route. Also, since I service my own electronics, it's easier to find any problems on a passive system. Three pots to check on a jazz. Sweet.

That being said, I have four basses going right now, and they all have active preamps installed. I use the bypass mode on them about half the time, and love the results (especially the Sadowsky.)

I think both the passive and active sound great through my SVT, but you have to set the controls a little differently if you are using a particularly hot preamp.
 
nonsqtr said:
Well, as you say, the results are highly variable. It would depend on the particular pickups and the design of the particular amp. AND, obviously, the design of the active preamp. That's usually one of the most important factors. A "well designed" active preamp won't change your sound. But, there are still changes that occur "after" the preamp, like for instance in the instrument cable. Various cables can make a HUGE difference in the sound that results. The same cable that works well for an active instrument may sound horrible with a passive instrument, and vice versa. That has mostly do to with the transmission line properties of the instrument cable, relative to the source impedance, and the load impedance. In a poorly matched system, you may be losing a big part of your midrange signal, without even necessarily realizing it (as you say, having nothing to compare it to). Someone guided me through this experiment some months back, and I was totally amazed by the results. They astounded "even me", and I've been doing this bass thing for about thirty years now.

While it is true it MAY happen... it also MAY NOT. That's still my point.

If we're going to bring in cables that really muddies the discussion IMO.

I'm referring to "good" active as well as lesser ones. So far this thread hasn't made a distinction and people are speaking in generalities (and seem to be focusing on bad examples). That's what I continue to take exception with.

I've been at this about thirty years too and my experience has still been that what I've already stated. I know input cab;es can make a difference... that wasn't the gist if this thread, was it?


Here's what I'm saying: in a "well matched system", where all the pieces (pickups, preamp, cable, amp) dovetail, you can probably flip switches and tweak knobs ad nauseum and never suffer any significant dropouts or undesirable sonic changes. However, in real life, "most" systems aren't well matched. Most systems are built up piecemeal, and most salesmen don't even know what the concept means. Consider "hum" for example. You can take a bass that's perfectly quiet with one amp, plug it into a different amp, and it'll hum like crazy when you're walking around the room. I've done that thousands of times in my career. Usually that kind of thing happens with passive basses, just because of the antenna and transmission line properties of the pickup-cable system. Active basses are less prone to that, although the system still obeys all the basic laws of physics, but the source has the property that it isn't "as much" affected by the varying impedances along the line, so the sound "appears to" be more consistent. But, switch to a different cable, and the chances are good you'll hear some changes in the sound.

This goes well outside the scope of what we're talking about... active and passive basses. We could just as easily bring in line voltage and voltage regulation as a variable:D. As such I won't drag in all my counterpoints to this paragraph. The same things you say can happen indeed can... but they don't HAVE to;)



With passive instruments, you're more in the risk range, just because of the way the pickups are connected (ie one end is usually grounded), and the higher source impedance. The grounding thing is especially insidious. With a passive bass, you'd have to run a balanced line (like, and XLR mic cable) between the bass and the amp to address this problem. With an active bass, you just use a differential input preamp and you're home free. Why more manufacturers don't do this is beyond me. Les Paul knew about this issue, and countless others. But the industry has standardized on single ended connections, hence we often have buzzy systems.

I have passive basses that rarely hum, usually only if I don't match the volume cut on each pickup of a two pickup bass. I've had passive basses that use the same Bartolini pickups as active basses and I didn't experience the differences you've mentioned. MMV.



What saves us, strangely enough, is that many systems aren't "good enough" to hear the difference. But take your bass into a studio and use an Avalon Vt737sp with it, and I guarantee you'll hear the difference. I'd bet a year's salary on it.

Not quite sure I understand the bet but I'm game. Let me know the parameters?


I've heard it with my own two ears, and the results are absolutely consistent, it happens the same way every time.

Let's use my basses. How much $$$'s are we talking?


Bottom line, one must design to one's ear. It doesn't make any sense to try to achieve "technical perfection", 'cause that may or may not relate to what one hears, and whether one thinks it's pleasant sounding or not. There's kinda two different things, there's the "tone" of the system, and there's the "operation" of the system. In a perfect world, those two would complement each other and the result would be synergy. In the real world, there's sometimes a tradeoff. For instance, in the real world, I'll take a quiet hum-free instrument over one that has perfect tone. Because, tone is subjective, and when you're in the heat of a gig, few people really pay attention to it anyway (except for the other bass players in the audience). But, hum is noticeable by everyone, and no one thinks it's pleasant.

That's where we differ... "I" pay attention to it (tone). That's extremely important to me. Whether other bassists dig it or not is inconsequential though by most of the (spoken;)) feedback I get they do.

I honestly have not had a hum problem probably since the 70's... and yes, I do gig quite often.
 
BenderR said:
My own opinion would be that an active bass with a passive bypass makes a lot of sense. Personally, I prefer a passive instrument and I can always find a sound I like using nothing more than a bass with two J-bass style pickups and a simple amp. Nonetheless I can see a lot of potential for great sounds with active circuitry. The nightmare is having a battery or preamp failure. The passive bypass takes care of that little objection and clears the way for even conservative players to feel comfortable with a bass so revolutionary as to need batteries. :)

Apparently not;)
 
jja412 said:
The biggest advantage that hasn't been gone over is : it's easy to fit the passive tone controls in a tight space. I recently wired a jazz with a Sadowsky pre w/vintage tone control, and it was TIGHT. It was all I could do to fit everything in the narrow control route. Also, since I service my own electronics, it's easier to find any problems on a passive system. Three pots to check on a jazz. Sweet.

How hard might it be to install in a bass DESIGNED for an active system?

As much as I like low profile tires, if I was looking for tires for a tractor...;)


That being said, I have four basses going right now, and they all have active preamps installed. I use the bypass mode on them about half the time, and love the results (especially the Sadowsky.)

I think both the passive and active sound great through my SVT, but you have to set the controls a little differently if you are using a particularly hot preamp.
 
jja412 said:
The biggest advantage that hasn't been gone over is : it's easy to fit the passive tone controls in a tight space. I recently wired a jazz with a Sadowsky pre w/vintage tone control, and it was TIGHT. It was all I could do to fit everything in the narrow control route.


Yep, good point, I just ran into this issue too. Was retro-fitting a guitar with active EQ, and the control route was so tight it barely fit the pots, let alone a circuit board and battery.


Brad Johnson said:
Let's use my basses.

Okay, let's use my studio.

Brad Johnson said:
How much $$$'s are we talking?

You don't want to know. :)

Seriously, if you're ever in the area, come on by and we'll check this out together. I'm open minded, bring your favorite basses and we can try a few of mine too. Maybe we could hook up at the NAMM show or something. I'll buy the beer (or whatever your favorite beverage is). :D
 
nonsqtr said:
Yep, good point, I just ran into this issue too. Was retro-fitting a guitar with active EQ, and the control route was so tight it barely fit the pots, let alone a circuit board and battery.


This is why outboards were created;)



Okay, let's use my studio.

No problem... I trust ya.


You don't want to know. :)

Sounds pretty open-ended... I just wanted to know what I'd win.:D


Seriously, if you're ever in the area, come on by and we'll check this out together. I'm open minded, bring your favorite basses and we can try a few of mine too. Maybe we could hook up at the NAMM show or something. I'll buy the beer (or whatever your favorite beverage is). :D

I'm still not clear on what the challenge is... is it that one of my active basses in passive mode will not have the same impedance as a passive bass? That it will sound obviously different in bypass mode than in active with the preamp gain set to match?

???

Beer is fine... as long as I'm not driving.
 
Brad Johnson said:
That it will sound obviously different in bypass mode than in active with the preamp gain set to match?

Yeah, that one, but more specific than that. The difference will be different with different amps. (Did I just say that?) The delta with a tube amp will be noticeably different than the delta with a solid state amp, all other things being equal. You can pick the representatives from each class, I have a dozen or so of each in the studio, or you can bring your own. Then we can do the Avalon trick and hear what we were missing with the other amps. Also have the requisite test equipment, for objective verification (spectral analysis and all that). Sounds like a fun way to pass a coupla hours. Don't worry, I won't take your money. :D

:hyper:
 
nonsqtr said:
Yeah, that one, but more specific than that. The difference will be different with different amps. (Did I just say that?) The delta with a tube amp will be noticeably different than the delta with a solid state amp, all other things being equal. You can pick the representatives from each class, I have a dozen or so of each in the studio, or you can bring your own. Then we can do the Avalon trick and hear what we were missing with the other amps. Also have the requisite test equipment, for objective verification (spectral analysis and all that). Sounds like a fun way to pass a coupla hours. Don't worry, I won't take your money. :D

:hyper:

So not only will it be different, the differences will also be different from amp to amp? And these differences will be audible?

You're on.

All I need is a plane ticket;)
 
nonsqtr said:
Yeah, that one, but more specific than that. The difference will be different with different amps. (Did I just say that?) The delta with a tube amp will be noticeably different than the delta with a solid state amp, all other things being equal. You can pick the representatives from each class, I have a dozen or so of each in the studio, or you can bring your own. Then we can do the Avalon trick and hear what we were missing with the other amps. Also have the requisite test equipment, for objective verification (spectral analysis and all that). Sounds like a fun way to pass a coupla hours. Don't worry, I won't take your money. :D

:hyper:

Maybe that explains why my MM5 sounds crap through my tube amp but the passive P-bass sounds great? Turning the gain down on the MM doesn't help by the way, it still sounds bad.
 
I like passive basses because the tone seems to have more 'feel' thats relative to the bass. For instance, i think a passive bass tone is more reflective of the materials of the bass and such, whereas with active electronics and a preamp, i dont feel as much of the tone shaping is coming from the actual woods/bridge/nut etc of the bass itself. I feel a passive tone has more character.

My Godin SD has passive bartolini pickups in it, and i can alter the tone whether i want thin and growly, thick, ballsy and growly, or phat and smooth. Although the thing i love about it is, at any of these settings, it still sounds like MY BASS. It keeps its unique tone throughout all.

My Spector Q5 has active electronics and an EMG preamp. I can alter the tone tremendously, but the thing is, it doesnt have a tone that i can just call the 'spector q5' tone. It has too many different types of tones that all seem to be unrelated and share no common feel.
 
Figjam said:
My Spector Q5 has active electronics and an EMG preamp. I can alter the tone tremendously, but the thing is, it doesnt have a tone that i can just call the 'spector q5' tone. It has too many different types of tones that all seem to be unrelated and share no common feel.

I suppose it's different between every bass. I'm pretty sure a Stingray retains the Stingray tone whatever setting it's in (dunno about the ones with the series/single/parallel switch).
 
Cool. All excellent points. From this thread we can probably compile a good list of why people like their passive instruments. Well, I'm heading on the road for a couple of days, and will be back on Thursday. I'll try to check in every once in a while, although time will be tight. Thanks everyone for the excellent input. You guys are the best! :hyper: