Double Bass Pat Metheny...

[Sparkl]

I am reposting this on the upright section aswell, after all we will get more Jazz related feedback from upright players

Although ebass is a perfect instrument to play Jazz also!! I must say this, since a lot of jazz musicians constantly have something to say against the ebass sound in Jazz.

Anyways:



The real deal starts at 1:56 or so.

What is this? Some people will make many stories and many more to justify this shredding adventure because he is a "genius".

The most amusing justification I read in one of the comments to this: He mastered those changes long ago, he simply chose not to play them and chose not to play in a way anyone would expect him to sound.

Ok, I can get that.

But there is a reason I am even posting this: How can he pull this off in Montreux, then, years later start dissing Kenny G without any remorse or doubts and talking about poopy music in Jazz and why people think that Jazz sucks.

The only reason this take on st.thomas got accepted was because big fish played it. Hart, McBride, Redman...

If I recorded something like this with my own group I would be probably labeled as the second worst thing along with Kenny G.

Now, let us put aside all our subjective thinking about Kenny G. Objectively we must agree that he is a skilled musician, composer, managed to even play with Stevie Wonder etc.

I don't listen to his (Kenny G) music but am still wondering.

How can you subjectively criticise somebody publicly as Metheny did and think you just managed to get a badass message across the globe? Personally when I saw that vid I really felt like punching Pat in the head so hard that he would remember it for a while. Someone on a level like Pat should never get tangled with subjectivism wars on other musicians. I really honestly despise him for that.

It is this elitism that Metheny showcased for us that really destroyed Jazz as a popular genre. You know, that "you gotta have the vibe and practice 20 hours a day to do Jazz dude" thing.

I am a bachelor of Jazz studies and I can see how its turning around. People generally think that Jazz is for snobs and people who only think they are intelligent.

I really disapprove what Metheny did on that vid dissing Kenny G (could be anybody, Kenny G is just an example), where he pointed out basically just his subjectivism and nothing else.

Can't listen to his music ever since. And then I found the vid in this topic. Just awesome

How do you guys feel about it? It's just my 2 cents on the topic, an irrelevant opinion in the big world of cats, yet it is how I feel about it. It's just wrong dissing another musician this way and especially at the level Pat thinks himself to be at. A Jazz messenger.

 

[Rebop]

I thought it was one of those parody '[band name] Shreds' videos.

 

[PauFerro]

I am a huge Metheny fan. Huge. One of my top idols. I just went on a cruise because he was on it. That huge.

But I agree, he was out of line in his Kenny G rant. Profanity, disrespect, etcetera. I was not impressed. I know that he has very high music standards, and I have also experienced his teaching. He is very harsh in his teaching, somewhat discouraging, etcetera. I don't think he means it, but he has his weaknesses in that regard. He was very disrespectful to Kenny G who has his own merits, even though many dislike him.

But he was very innovative and wrote a lot of good music that touched me over the years, so his problems with Kenny G didn't sway me from his music.

As far as his work on St. Thomas goes, I actually found his solo amusing. It was funny. I think he was trying to intentionally make it dissonant and tongue in cheek. Josh Redman is another story. I've seen him interviewd and heard him play. He is a good sax player, but doesn't stand out in any way to me.

 

[PauFerro]

I thought it was one of those parody '[band name] Shreds' videos.

I literally shed years laughing at this video.

 

[Sparkl]

I am a huge Metheny fan. Huge. One of my top idols. I just went on a cruise because he was on it. That huge.

But I agree, he was out of line in his Kenny G rant. Profanity, disrespect, etcetera. I was not impressed. I know that he has very high music standards, and I have also experienced his teaching. He is very harsh in his teaching, somewhat discouraging, etcetera. I don't think he means it, but he has his weaknesses in that regard. He was very disrespectful to Kenny G who has his own merits, even though many dislike him.

But he was very innovative and wrote a lot of good music that touched me over the years, so his problems with Kenny G didn't sway me from his music.

As far as his work on St. Thomas goes, I actually found his solo amusing. It was funny. I think he was trying to intentionally make it dissonant and tongue in cheek. Josh Redman is another story. I've seen him interviewd and heard him play. He is a good sax player, but doesn't stand out in any way to me.

I don't know him in person so thats a great insight you've just given me/us. I thank you for it.

Personally, I was never his fan or anything so basically these things just further deteriorated my feelings about him. Objectively I cannot disregard him in any way because it would be foolish to do so but subjectively he is a dick

On the other hand, there are many "jazz geniuses" out there (or were) that are also equally as intolerant to other musicians. Pure "ego trip".

Not quite my tempo. Do it again. Still not my tempo.

These guys have a particular way of communicating with you and it really requires you to be a character that needs to be "handled in a military fashion" to actually achieve something if you wish to be taught from these people.

Otherwise, as you said, discouraging. And this is why I feel that jazz stands where it does nowadays because let's face it guys, all of us jazz players secretly (or openly) share a feeling of musical/technical superiority over the rest of the musicians. And this attitude over the years transformed into a general atmosphere of Jazz.

That's why we stand where we stand with Jazz nowadays. Not because of Kenny G poopy music.

 

[MrMyopia]

It is this elitism that Metheny showcased for us that really destroyed Jazz as a popular genre.
.

Not true.

You know, that "you gotta have the vibe and practice 20 hours a day to do Jazz dude" thing..

If you think one can get there any other way, you're either mistaken or not playing it very well.

 

[turf3]

I think it was an OK solo. Went on a bit long for my taste. I am not really a Metheny fan, but I thought it was appropriate for the setting. It doesn't upset me when guys go outside.

Frankly, St. Thomas has fairly little harmonic content, so what I hear with both Metheny and Redman on this video is guys trying to get something out of the tune, without copying what Sonny Rollins did. Actually if you think about the Rollins recording, he neither goes outside (as far as I remember) nor gets "passionate" (squeals, etc.) - I think his solo is also fairly concise.

I think the best solo (also pretty short) was the bass solo.

 

[Sparkl]

The problem is not in getting out tonally. Shreding is. He clearly plays out both rhytmically and technically up to the point when it becomes like : is he for real?

This is not skill based anymore. It is pure random stuff. Literally everyone can do what he did here.

 

[Sparkl]

Not true.



If you think one can get there any other way, you're either mistaken or not playing it very well.

It is true and we all know it. Jazz has always been to conservative and tightly closed.

What happened with bebop? Why was bebop actually "invented"? There is a nice history behind it. Even Duke Ellington had to resist for a while from becoming the typical "white jazz composer" so that his ideas could get through in time.

And no, you don't need 20 hours of instrument practice. Read a Herbie Hancock book for starters if you wish.

 

[jdthebassman]

I have heard methneys rants before and pay no mind to them. in the past I have heard hardcore jazz players run down players like Kenny g and david sanborn for selling out or worse making money, while they go out and play for chump change or for free. Kenny garrett is a great player and can bop with the best of them, he got his start with the jeff lorber fusion check out some of those early albums. Kenny is smart he goes for the money and has done well I would play in his band in a second and can go toe to toe with vail. I have done GB gigs where these hardcore jazz players get out of their element and cant hang, one time mustang sally was called and one of those hardcore jazzers asked do you have a chart LOL

 

[brianrost]

The Kenny G rant was about a particular recording Mr. G made.



Metheny was dissing Mr. G for disrespecting Armstrong, as I recall.

 

[tsheldon]

I like Metheny's solo. Even if I didn't like it I wouldn't be able to hold it up as an example of bad playing, worst thing I could say is it wasn't to my taste.

In my view the target of your ire for the state of jazz should be Wynton Marsalis. He lead the "purity" movement that discredited all of the fusion movement of the 70s and 80s and effectively severed jazz's connection to current trends in popular music. The net effect was reducing jazz to a museum art form for many years. A lot of people spoke up (like famously Keith Jarret) but Wynton sucked all of the oxygen out of the room. Fortunately that trend is reversing now thanks to folks like Esperanza Spalding and those cats playing with Kendrick Lamar but I feel like we were in the dark ages for a while.

 

[PauFerro]

That is NOT Pat Metheny playing. Check out the original video

The Kenny G rant was about a particular recording Mr. G made.



Metheny was dissing Mr. G for disrespecting Armstrong, as I recall.

Yes, he dissed that, but he went a lot further to go on about how Kenny G plays sharp, can't even compose eighth note songs very well, plays only pentatonic scales, and has created some of the "dumbest music on the planet". That he has besmirched jazz because everyone thinks it's what Kenny G plays. So, his rant started with the Louis Armstrong overdub (calling it musical necorphelia or something like that), and ended with more attacks on Kenny G's other attributes than you can shake a stick at.

 

[PauFerro]

On the other hand, there are many "jazz geniuses" out there (or were) that are also equally as intolerant to other musicians. Pure "ego trip".

These guys have a particular way of communicating with you and it really requires you to be a character that needs to be "handled in a military fashion" to actually achieve something if you wish to be taught from these people.

That's a bit of a sweeping generalization, with perhaps some truth to it, but there are some caring teachers out there.

I have had only about three jazz lessons from competent players over 30 years, and I did find there was an above average amount of harsh teaching though. Teaching that left me discouraged and feeling disaffirmed as a person. Of the three lessons I had, two of the guys were really harsh. Terrible teachers (I am a full time teacher of 22 years, among other things, so I have opinions about what makes a good teacher). But I had one jazz teacher who was kind and supportive. On top of it, the guys I perform with are always very vague about their approach to jazz improvisation. I ask a question and get stares or a general answer. Sometimes they would disagree with what I thought was a correct principle. It was almost as if they didn't want to tell me how they did it lest I crowd the jazz space. I had to learn it by piecing together concepts from Jamie Aebersold and Berkley College of Music publications and using my own conceptualization.

One group of musicians, friends in high school who went on to get music degrees, joined up with me. I was proud I had learned to walk over chord changes. Then they did something that irked me to this day. They kept pushing me with harder and harder charts, eventually ending with Cherokee at a breakneck speed. I sat there unable to play it and it was only when I admitted I had a ways to go in my abilities (something I knew when I walked into the jam sessions) that they moved onto the next topic. I was ticked. It was completely unsupportive, and unnecessary, as I brought no ego to the jam session,I did bring a certain amount of happiness that I had learned to walk over medium paced, medium density jazz charts. But I shared that happiness like you would with family or friends whom you would think would be happy for your achievement. With their attempt to induce humility, they dragged a smelly, rotten fish over my fond memories of our days in high school playing jazz at the school and my most recent, motivating achievement. I never played with them again.

I have also heard jazz greats indicate they, and others, are in fact "snobs". Which I think has no place in the world. People are always concerned jazz isn't going to survive. It already pays less than rock, has a smaller listernership, and seems to get eaten away by new musical art forms. Many listeners are musicians who, in trying to play the genre, get a respect for it and can hear things the average listener might miss. Why alienate them with snobbish conversation and exclusionary, discouraging comments and practices?

 

[jthisdell]

I'm a big Metheney fan but this was terrible.

 

[damonsmith]

I always say he really hits a sweet spot: utterly unlistenable and unquestionably great!
He sounds like his hair. I can get through Bright Size Life just to hear Jaco and Moses. Song X is one of Ornette's worst albums and gets plugged all the time because of PM.
This is a great solo, I'd like him more if this was his usual mode!

 

[Sparkl]

That's a bit of a sweeping generalization, with perhaps some truth to it, but there are some caring teachers out there.

I have had only about three jazz lessons from competent players over 30 years, and I did find there was an above average amount of harsh teaching though. Teaching that left me discouraged and feeling disaffirmed as a person. Of the three lessons I had, two of the guys were really harsh. Terrible teachers (I am a full time teacher of 22 years, among other things, so I have opinions about what makes a good teacher). But I had one jazz teacher who was kind and supportive. On top of it, the guys I perform with are always very vague about their approach to jazz improvisation. I ask a question and get stares or a general answer. Sometimes they would disagree with what I thought was a correct principle. It was almost as if they didn't want to tell me how they did it lest I crowd the jazz space. I had to learn it by piecing together concepts from Jamie Aebersold and Berkley College of Music publications and using my own conceptualization.

One group of musicians, friends in high school who went on to get music degrees, joined up with me. I was proud I had learned to walk over chord changes. Then they did something that irked me to this day. They kept pushing me with harder and harder charts, eventually ending with Cherokee at a breakneck speed. I sat there unable to play it and it was only when I admitted I had a ways to go in my abilities (something I knew when I walked into the jam sessions) that they moved onto the next topic. I was ticked. It was completely unsupportive, and unnecessary, as I brought no ego to the jam session,I did bring a certain amount of happiness that I had learned to walk over medium paced, medium density jazz charts. But I shared that happiness like you would with family or friends whom you would think would be happy for your achievement. With their attempt to induce humility, they dragged a smelly, rotten fish over my fond memories of our days in high school playing jazz at the school and my most recent, motivating achievement. I never played with them again.

I have also heard jazz greats indicate they, and others, are in fact "snobs". Which I think has no place in the world. People are always concerned jazz isn't going to survive. It already pays less than rock, has a smaller listernership, and seems to get eaten away by new musical art forms. Many listeners are musicians who, in trying to play the genre, get a respect for it and can hear things the average listener might miss. Why alienate them with snobbish conversation and exclusionary, discouraging comments and practices?

I completely agree. Through my Jazz studies, I also had luck to mainly have really good teachers with great and caring attitude and I really always felt like they want to hear me improve as opposed to just criticising all the time.

But there is no denying that jazz genre likes to surprise us with funny snobs. Like, you don't want to afford sometimes to tell other people that you dislike the Coltrane vibe for example. People will sometimes immediately start to doubt your credibility because of it.

Disliking Coltrane is just an example but it really it really works like a religion sometimes. Tell a christian that you don't believe in Jesus and hear what he has to say about it.

Coltrane, Parker, all those guys... It mainly became a Jazz religion in a sense that if you don't transcribe their stuff you can't really get into jazz. While I partially agree since they really set some serious milestones back in their time, I also believe that transcribing Joshua Redman for example, while ignoring coltrane (or parker), should also bring you up to a certain point, perhaps even closer to your original sound since you connect more with his phrasing rather than just forcing yourself to transcribe the others.

I really oversimplified it, but I just believe that you should do whatever pleases you and shouldn't be criticised for it and forcing this always present "school feeling" of jazz being science. It really isn't. It is an expression, by the words of Louis Armstrong himself. Or Wes Montgomery. Or Bob Mintzer. etc etc.

The public you will attract on your gig will usually decide whether your work is worth something or not.

 

[Sparkl]

That is NOT Pat Metheny playing. Check out the original video

Am... It is the exact same recording.

 

[damonsmith]

The only reason this take on st.thomas got accepted was because big fish played it. Hart, McBride, Redman...

If I recorded something like this with my own group I would be probably labeled as the second worst thing along with Kenny G.

Now, let us put aside all our subjective thinking about Kenny G. Objectively we must agree that he is a skilled musician, composer, managed to even play with Stevie etc.

You are missing several points here. You are misunderstanding why no one into jazz likes KG - it is exactly because he takes no chances. All of us like varying degrees of liberties taken in the music but no one who likes jazz wants no liberties taken.
KG only takes liberties with his hair and his overdubs.

You are also missing why people respect PM. PM's solo here proves why even someone like me can barely listen to him respects him. He knows the music inside and out. He can play and his ideas are clear.
Playing dissonant notes doesn't mean he doesn't know the changes - there are dissonant note choices in every key. That solo isn't even free or avant garde, it is just advanced. I saw Ray Brown take just as dissonant a solo at concert before.

Also, Metheny had made his name probably before McBride and Redman had even started playing. He was playing with Redman's father, a far more serious musician than his son (who wouldn't have recorded with the Bad Plus) in the '80s.

 

[Lee Moses]

Am... It is the exact same recording.

Yep.

As for the original post, I don't really see the comparison. Pat Metheny played an "out there" solo. Nobody ever got on Kenny G for playing an "out there" solo. Quite the contrary.