Double Bass Pat Metheny...

[Sparkl]

What is the true point of this thread? Just to prove that Pat Metheny is a hypocrite for criticizing Kenny G for playing bad music, then playing a bad guitar solo himself? Seriously?

Also, was it really necessary to double post this in the bass guitar section as well?

And random playing doesn't exist. The human mind is hardly capable of truly random thought.

Yes. It is just not so obvious in music.

It is in basically every other profession though. But, then again, there are many things that are unclear to people in the music world. Even more so to the people that only listen to music.

Edit: To elaborate further - Pat speaks in his interview about KG being one of those guys that make jazz sound like crap basically and is a disgrace to the jazz world.

Now imagine. Present his solo on st. thomas or ony of KG works to a person that has not a clue about jazz. I doubt he would be pleased to hear that solo as opposed to KG works.

Perhaps KG is doing more for jazz to young public today than most of us think.

Now call me a KG supporter or anything - I am not trying to defend his actions. I don't even listen to this guy. But. Stop looking at jazz and its complexity from your educated point of view because this only appeals to professionals.

Do you also try to get a young kid into electronics by showing him the most complicated PCB you have ever created that doesn't even work yet and he will never be able to understand unless spending some hefty time reading some advanced books about electronics? Or do you show him a fun product that amuses him and also shows him some hints of the actual beauty hidden in that device?

I would not dare to say that KG makes Jazz sound like poopie since his big fanbase shows quite the opposite. At least he presents some of the jazz elements to the dominant pop fanbase group. How many people do that nowadays?

Now Pat, he mainly has a fanbase among educated jazz players.

 

[PauFerro]

Pat made a mistake. No question. It was unprofessional, and it's Jerry Springer to initiate spats between artists. Remember Travis Tritt and Billy Ray Cyrus? Total gutter stuff.

I wonder how Pat would feel if he ends up on the ticket with Kenny G and has to pass him in the musician's waiting area before he goes on stage?

The only response I've heard from Kenny G was short, and, in my view, elevated him above Pat Metheny on the professionalism plane. Notwithstanding my admiration for Pat far and above Kenny G musically...his response is a short paragraph at the end of an interview for his Rythmn and Romance CD.

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Too bad Pat, you stooped pretty low with that rant...

 

[damonsmith]

It isn't unprofessional when it needs to be said. PM said something that needed to be said. He took a stand for the music. We need to see that more often.

 

[damonsmith]

Pat made a mistake. No question. It was unprofessional, and it's Jerry Springer to initiate spats between artists. Remember Travis Tritt and Billy Ray Cyrus? Total gutter stuff.

I wonder how Pat would feel if he ends up on the ticket with Kenny G and has to pass him in the musician's waiting area before he goes on stage?

The only response I've heard from Kenny G was short, and, in my view, elevated him above Pat Metheny on the professionalism plane. Notwithstanding my admiration for Pat far and above Kenny G musically...his response is a short paragraph at the end of an interview for his Rythmn and Romance CD.

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Too bad Pat, you stooped pretty low with that rant...

You are confusing working Joe gigger etiquette with artist etiquette. Pat Metheny doesn't need a gig from anyone and someone with his level of credibility needed to say something and he did.
Serious artists put the music first not the hypothetical "next gig".
I am not making a value judgement just stating a fact.
Working musicians who want to keep working need to not stir the pot.

 

[jthisdell]

Wynton Marsalis said much the same and campaigned for years on the idea that jazz should stay jazz and not stray into rock or pop but he did it without calling any particular artists out.

 

[Sparkl]

Wynton Marsalis said much the same and campaigned for years on the idea that jazz should stay jazz and not stray into rock or pop but he did it without calling any particular artists out.

Exactly. I wish I was able to say the same in this short form on my first post. Perhaps it would be more clear what my whole point was. This is exactly it.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Yes. It is just not so obvious in music.

It is in basically every other profession though. But, then again, there are many things that are unclear to people in the music world. Even more so to the people that only listen to music.

Edit: To elaborate further - Pat speaks in his interview about KG being one of those guys that make jazz sound like crap basically and is a disgrace to the jazz world.

Now imagine. Present his solo on st. thomas or ony of KG works to a person that has not a clue about jazz. I doubt he would be pleased to hear that solo as opposed to KG works.

Perhaps KG is doing more for jazz to young public today than most of us think.

Now call me a KG supporter or anything - I am not trying to defend his actions. I don't even listen to this guy. But. Stop looking at jazz and its complexity from your educated point of view because this only appeals to professionals.

Do you also try to get a young kid into electronics by showing him the most complicated PCB you have ever created that doesn't even work yet and he will never be able to understand unless spending some hefty time reading some advanced books about electronics? Or do you show him a fun product that amuses him and also shows him some hints of the actual beauty hidden in that device?

I would not dare to say that KG makes Jazz sound like poopie since his big fanbase shows quite the opposite. At least he presents some of the jazz elements to the dominant pop fanbase group. How many people do that nowadays?

Now Pat, he mainly has a fanbase among educated jazz players.

Your whole stance is just much ado about nothing. I'm not going to sit here and hold Metheny to some higher standard as a human being. He obviously doesn't care for Kenny G's music much and expressed it. We don't need to take that into consideration when analyzing these people's music, its irrelevant.

Kenny G is playing the most accessible version of jazz possible. There is nothing wrong with that. For those that seek something more challenging to listen to, check out Metheny. Nothing wrong with that either. In my opinion, you would be better served listening to Metheny, but whatever floats your boat. Your whole thing just seems to be trying to nail Metheny on some personal level, and there is no point to it.

And "unprofessional"...I don't know about you guys but musicians have never been a glowing example of professionalism and are known to speak their mind and have fairly extreme opinions about things. A good chunk of my jazz idols were on hard drugs or were alcoholics, and morally questionable.

 

[Sparkl]

It isn't unprofessional when it needs to be said. PM said something that needed to be said. He took a stand for the music. We need to see that more often.

What needed to be said? That KG music was poopie? That Jazz steered away from the traditional form? What exactly was Pats message there? The only thing he did was to say some insults out loud and that was it. I can't see a clear message from what he said really.

Let us look at that video again:



So whats the message here? That KG sucks major genitals and that only 5% of jazz music is really great and that it correlates with rock and pop and whatever. Oh and that there are no major stores where you can select from a lot of records of jazz in the same way as you can with other music and that is why people mostly hear poopie jazz.

Apart from insulting KG, he basically just exposed the fact that we all know. Can't really argue that only the few top % of stuff is really great and the best. I can't imagine how to consider a driver that always finishes last in a NASCAR race "the best".

Well... I don't know how you guys have it in the states, but really where I live in Europe theres are stores specifically focused on jazz and they sell all kinds of records (great stuff) that you can check on the spot before buying.

 

[Sparkl]

Your whole stance is just much ado about nothing. I'm not going to sit here and hold Metheny to some higher standard as a human being. He obviously doesn't care for Kenny G's music much and expressed it. We don't need to take that into consideration when analyzing these people's music, its irrelevant.

Kenny G is playing the most accessible version of jazz possible. There is nothing wrong with that. For those that seek something more challenging to listen to, check out Metheny. Nothing wrong with that either. In my opinion, you would be better served listening to Metheny, but whatever floats your boat. Your whole thing just seems to be trying to nail Metheny on some personal level, and there is no point to it.

And "unprofessional"...I don't know about you guys but musicians have never been a glowing example of professionalism and are known to speak their mind and have fairly extreme opinions about things. A good chunk of my jazz idols were on hard drugs or were alcoholics, and morally questionable.

Right, I agree with that.

I don't quite get what you mean on a personal level though. This thing is really subjective as you pointed out also. Some people get the vibe of a musician only through their playing and don't care about the rest.

Me personally, I look at the whole picture. His playing and his personality. Because it always connects. And things like these only deteriorate my liking or sympathy to that musician. Can't really enjoy his music the same, knowing that he actually knows how to be a douche.

Edit: I personally connect music to something greater than envy, jealousy, egoism, anger.

 

[Martin Beer]

Isn't it almost a tradition in jazz for artists to occasionally make grand statements calling one another out like that? I'm thinking of things like Mingus' open letters in Downbeat. It required some chutzpah for Metheny to do that, but to me it feels like he was doing something quite healthy. If anything it even helps me warm to him, and I'm sure KG is confident enough not to be too deeply wounded by it.

 

[damonsmith]

If G hadn't overdubbed as well as profited from overdubbing on great players who never would have played with him when they were alive Metheny wouldn't have spoken up. It was important to address the poor quality of G's music due to the context.

 

[damonsmith]

Also, people need to realize actions have consequences. G sold out the music and made millions, he also sold any respect he would have had from anyone who puts the music first.
I am sure he is happy with his decisions. Making money is higher priority for people like G than Methey's respect.

 

[CryingBass]

Saw Pat at a tiny place called Harry Hopes in Elgin IL back in the 70s. It was a ski lodge bar with RTF in the jukebox.

They ( and I mean Eagan etc ) played mostly White Album stuff. I was in the first row, feet resting on the stage. I was also with probably the hottest girl recently from Huntley High

She aparently was unimpressed and fell asleep while PM observed such. He was not ammused.

Also saw him with Joni M at Alpine Valley WI.
And with Ornette Coleman for the Song X tour

If you saw him play in the context back then, you would cut him "some" slack... YMMV

Edit: Jaco. Eagan. Wertico. Rodby. And of course Lyle.
It was a righteous brand!

 

[damonsmith]

Wynton Marsalis said much the same and campaigned for years on the idea that jazz should stay jazz and not stray into rock or pop but he did it without calling any particular artists out.

He also did a lot more real and lasting damage, and put a lot of great musicians out of work. He can play but there is no real reason to listen to him. Any great straight ahead LP from the 50s or 60s is better than hearing him.

 

[PauFerro]

Wynton Marsalis said much the same and campaigned for years on the idea that jazz should stay jazz and not stray into rock or pop but he did it without calling any particular artists out.

Contrast that statement to repeated statements some great musicians like DAvid Sanborn and Lalah Hathaway made on the Blue Note Jazz Cruise I just came home from last week. He said there are no boundaries, that it's about innovation, and praised people doing abstract, free jazz, smashing boundaries between R&B, smooth, fusion and straight ahead jazz. He, or one of the greats on the cruise commented that no one needs to sound like Coltrane because we already had Coltrane. Everyone needs to be authentic, true to who they are, and create something unique. That was the theme I got from multiple musicians of recent and old fame.

Robert Glasper commented that "jazz needs a kick in the a$@" to make it different. That motivates me and encourages me to listen to a lot of new material that may not grab me at first. And part of me thinks I'm contributing to that goal with my own original music, in my own feeble way. Much of it is saying "screw you" to naysayers, refusing to listen to certain people after careful consideration of their ideas, and doing what feels right.

 

[brianrost]

I was shopping at a used book store and saw Pat Metheny Zero Tolerance for Silence. Took it home, loaded up my CD, and pushed play...............

I recall seeing a lot of used copies of Song X around, too.

Some thnk ZTFS was just a way to fulfill a contract obligatin to his label (Geffen). Supposedly it was recorded in one afternoon. Like Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music fans still argue over whether it was actually serious or just a joke at the expense of his label.

Pat is the poster boy for doing both acessible, listener friendly music (pretty much anything credited to PMB) and then pretty outrageous "solo project" stuff. Check out his Orchestrion Project for example. I really liked his trio record with Roy Haynes and Dave Holland Question and Answer. ZTFS is fun to listen to now and then, it's out there but it's not total noise.

 

[PauFerro]

And "unprofessional"...I don't know about you guys but musicians have never been a glowing example of professionalism and are known to speak their mind and have fairly extreme opinions about things. A good chunk of my jazz idols were on hard drugs or were alcoholics, and morally questionable.

History shows that certain kinds of unprofessional behavior can really damage a career. There is one famous bass player who I idolized, who, on a discussion forum, got a bit too caustic with a fan. This rubbed off on my desire to buy his CD's. Sinead O'Connor put her whole career in the toilet when she ripped up a picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live. Ashley McKaizak (sp?) a Canadian fiddle player trashed his career when he told the crowd to F-off in concert. It seems that drinking and drugs are something we accept in musicians, even feeling a bit of sympathy when they battle addictions, but calling out other musicians in public fights crosses the line in my view, particularly from guys who are otherwise pretty straight and admirable characters. It makes you wonder what their true character is. For me, the person's behavior impacts my love of their music. Good character, enhances it.

 

[turf3]

Some various thoughts:

1) Personally I think What a Wonderful World is not high level music. If Kenny G had overdubbed on West End Blues or A Love Supreme I might be able to muster more indignation. Sorry, but even Louis did release some dreck.

2) I don't think what Kenny does is "Jazz". I think it's instrumental pop, played (with considerable skill and even more marketing) on the soprano sax.

3) Given the number of albums Metheny has put out with that damn "Ooooohhh Aaaaahhh" synthesized choir washing over everything, I don't really think he is exactly in a position to look down his nose very far. There are other musicians that in my opinion could talk about sacrificing art for money with more credibility.

4) I am not sure whether I think it's really uncool for one prominent musician to scoff at another over the validity of their work, or whether I think that when the emperor is running around naked, someone ought to speak the truth. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

 

[Jeshua]

Reading this thread brings to mind being on the bandstand when someone skips a beat or hits a glaring clam. Me? The drummer? It doesn't much matter so much WHO did it. The point is it happens, and the way everyone reacts after the fact can carry at least as much weight.

In life and in music, people are going to do stuff that bugs us, with the words they use, or the notes they play. We can write those instances down in our hearts or on the interweb, and write even more about how much something irks us. Or we can do something else. But everyone involved is responsible for their own reaction. Our opinions matter, but ONLY to our own individual selves.

Ok. Too much coffee this morning. *ahem* Rise above and play through the crap that bugs you. Talk about the stuff that excites you. Ignore the stuff that distracts, detracts, and doesn't help the music. Unless someone spills beer on your gear. Then punch that muffhugga.

 

[lurk]

I'm just stumbling across this thread, and I'm amazed at the response to Metheny's St Thomas solo. It's a pretty happening solo, and the form is pretty easy to hear. What's the big deal? Too much Jazz College, IMHO. It's just music, not a rules-based game.