Phil Jones advice

[CT Corvette]

Hey all,

Looking for some advice on my amp situation. I've been playing a Phil Jones BG 400 on top of a Bag End S15-D for a while and I generally like it. The PJ combo is super clear and the 15 inch Bag End speaker adds a bit of bottom and warmth. It's not a very loud amp though, and every once in a while I need some more head room. Last week I had to push it to the point that the sound was distorting a bit (a big outdoor gig).

I'm wondering if the Phil Jones BP 800 would be a smart upgrade for power with a similar sound to my combo. And if you think so, what cabinet would make sense to stack on top of the Bag End for that head?

Amps and sound is what I struggle with the most as a bassist (I'm not a technical dude at all), so any thoughts or ideas are welcome (am I missing something with my current setup?).

Thank you!

 

[el murdoque]

Without knowing the exact specs of the 15" Bag End, I'd assume that the Bag End, driven by a head, is a fair bit louder than the BG 400.
The four Phil Jones speakers have about the same SPL as a very good 1x10" or a mediocre 1x12" cabinet.

That makes things complicated, though. When you swap out the combo and replace it with a head, you're looking for a good match for the Bag End 15".
In terms of speaker surface, a 210 would be a good choice, but the only Bag End 210 cabs I know of all have 4 Ohms, so they would not fit your system.

Mix and match is always trial and error. Two cabs that were not designed to work with each other can work great, but they also can be awful.
I personally would look for a good 2x10 cab with tweeter.

 

[CT Corvette]

Without knowing the exact specs of the 15" Bag End, I'd assume that the Bag End, driven by a head, is a fair bit louder than the BG 400.
The four Phil Jones speakers have about the same SPL as a very good 1x10" or a mediocre 1x12" cabinet.

That makes things complicated, though. When you swap out the combo and replace it with a head, you're looking for a good match for the Bag End 15".
In terms of speaker surface, a 210 would be a good choice, but the only Bag End 210 cabs I know of all have 4 Ohms, so they would not fit your system.

Mix and match is always trial and error. Two cabs that were not designed to work with each other can work great, but they also can be awful.
I personally would look for a good 2x10 cab with tweeter.

Thank you!

 

[eniac]

Mix and match is always trial and error. Two cabs that were not designed to work with each other can work great, but they also can be awful.

Amen to that.

Also, has the OP verified that the combo and the Bag End are operating with the same polarity? It can be done with one's ears if one knows what to listen for.

 

[Aloe]

IME Phil Jones amps don't distort. they're able to clip (and at some level of gain and master maximising this may sound like a very subtle, but ugly overdrive, more like harsh aggressive clipping, but definitely not a distortion). I own a BG-75 and a D-400, owned a S-77 as well, and had maxed out all of them. two of them share the same preamp as your combo, so I'd say it's safe to assume, Phil Jones amps usually sound fine if maximized: both on amp side and speakers side.

are you totally sure, that was amp's distortion, not that poor 115? with 'only' 250W you can be able to fart out a single 115, especially when pushing deep lows and it's not a modern neo one.

this actually is important for deciding, which way to go: i.e. what's your weakest link? the cab? which? the amp?

 

[bassfran]

My 2 cents- add another Bag End 15 to stack and see how that goes for you.

If that isn’t enough I imagine both those cabs and an upgrade to the 800 head would be killer. Just watch your volume levels.

 

[HaggardStallion]

Hey all,

Looking for some advice on my amp situation. I've been playing a Phil Jones BG 400 on top of a Bag End S15-D for a while and I generally like it. The PJ combo is super clear and the 15 inch Bag End speaker adds a bit of bottom and warmth. It's not a very loud amp though, and every once in a while I need some more head room. Last week I had to push it to the point that the sound was distorting a bit (a big outdoor gig).

I'm wondering if the Phil Jones BP 800 would be a smart upgrade for power with a similar sound to my combo. And if you think so, what cabinet would make sense to stack on top of the Bag End for that head?

Amps and sound is what I struggle with the most as a bassist (I'm not a technical dude at all), so any thoughts or ideas are welcome (am I missing something with my current setup?).

Thank you!

I have been using My Phil Jones BG 400 with C4 cab since 2017 both indoor and outdoor venues with no issues, but recently bought the BP800 and c8 cab. I can tell you that the c8+c4+bp800 is perfect for any situation on my end at 10 o'clock. As for tone, there is no difference between the bg400 and BP800, depending on the cab configuration. the C8 has deeper response is the only difference in my set up. Sorry i can't help with tone using the bag end 15's as i don not own any.

 

[Wasnex]

The BP 800 is rated 400W at 8 ohms and 800W at 4 ohms. So it can provide more power at 8 ohms than the S15D is rated for. The problem is exactly the same with a pair of S15Ds, but you get more volume before you exceed the speakers' limit.

I used a Bag End S15D years ago:

• Impedance 8 ohms
• Sensitivity 103dB 1W/1m
• Power Handling 300W RMS

This is pretty efficient for a 15, so it gets loud with minimal power. However, I suspect it will get ratty with less than 300W.

To me ears the S15D is very mid-rangy; I.E no real lows or highs. It did not work for me as a standalone. I ran it as the woofer with a biamped GK 800RB. For the mids and highs, I used a Ramsa WS-A200, which is 12+horn PA cab. This was the clearest and most articulate rig I have ever used. I actually enjoyed it quite a bit. However, one of my peers asked to use my rig on a shared-bill gig. He pretty much hated it as he wanted lots of fat.

The BG 400 is rated 300W into the internal cab and 500W with an 8 ohm extension. This means the internal speakers should share power equally with an S15D. I.E each will get up to 250W.

The internal cab's sensitivity is 93dB 1W/1m. When paired with an S15D, I believe the combined sensitivity is 103.207dB. Honestly I am sort of surprised you can hear the internal speaker over the Bag End.

Calculated SPL:
300W into the internal speaker = ~117.8dB
300W into S15D = ~127.8dB
500W into both cabs = ~130dB
500W into pair of S15Ds = ~133dB

These are probably a bit optimistic as both cabs are fairly limited down low. The sensitivity ratings probably aren't legit below 100hz.

If you like the sound of the S15D by itself, you will get significantly more SPL by adding a second S15D and not using the internal speaker on your combo.

 

[HaggardStallion]

The BP 800 is rated 400W at 8 ohms and 800W at 4 ohms. So it can provide more power at 8 ohms than the S15D is rated for. The problem is exactly the same with a pair of S15Ds, but you get more volume before you exceed the speakers' limit.

I used a Bag End S15D years ago:

• Impedance 8 ohms
• Sensitivity 103dB 1W/1m
• Power Handling 300W RMS

This is pretty efficient for a 15, so it gets loud with minimal power. However, I suspect it will get ratty with less than 300W.

To me ears the S15D is very mid-rangy; I.E no real lows or highs. It did not work for me as a standalone. I ran it as the woofer with a biamped GK 800RB. For the mids and highs, I used a Ramsa WS-A200, which is 12+horn PA cab. This was the clearest and most articulate rig I have ever used. I actually enjoyed it quite a bit. However, one of my peers asked to use my rig on a shared-bill gig. He pretty much hated it as he wanted lots of fat.

The BG 400 is rated 300W into the internal cab and 500W with an 8 ohm extension. This means the internal speakers should share power equally with an S15D. I.E each will get up to 250W.

The internal cab's sensitivity is 93dB 1W/1m. When paired with an S15D, I believe the combined sensitivity is 103.207dB. Honestly I am sort of surprised you can hear the internal speaker over the Bag End.

Calculated SPL:
300W into the internal speaker = ~117.8dB
300W into S15D = ~127.8dB
500W into both cabs = ~130dB
500W into pair of S15Ds = ~133dB

These are probably a bit optimistic as both cabs are fairly limited down low. The sensitivity ratings probably aren't legit below 100hz.

If you like the sound of the S15D by itself, you will get significantly more SPL by adding a second S15D and not using the internal speaker on your combo.

In my manuals the specs are slightly different. It states that the BG400 with the c8 cab is 575 watts and that the BP800 is 800 watts clean but can provide up to 1200 watts at 4 ohms. That is a bit confusing to me. Good info bro

 

[winegamd]

The 15-D has a very particular voicing emphasizing low mids. There isn't much below 100hz as a result. On top of that, the drivers don't have much excursion compared to modern drivers. They do however have okay sensitivity. If you utilize a high pass filter to keep them from farting out, add a second 15-D, power them with 500-600 watts, they can get pretty loud, and will be authoritative in the mix. You just cant expect a lot of fundamental or subjective lows. The Bag End is just not the box for that.

 

[CT Corvette]

IME Phil Jones amps don't distort. they're able to clip (and at some level of gain and master maximising this may sound like a very subtle, but ugly overdrive, more like harsh aggressive clipping, but definitely not a distortion). I own a BG-75 and a D-400, owned a S-77 as well, and had maxed out all of them. two of them share the same preamp as your combo, so I'd say it's safe to assume, Phil Jones amps usually sound fine if maximized: both on amp side and speakers side.

are you totally sure, that was amp's distortion, not that poor 115? with 'only' 250W you can be able to fart out a single 115, especially when pushing deep lows and it's not a modern neo one.

this actually is important for deciding, which way to go: i.e. what's your weakest link? the cab? which? the amp?

Thanks for pointing all this out... It totally could have been clipping and not distorting (I guess I don't actually know what "distorting" means; I was just using the word to describe the way the tone was changing as I was pushing the rig) and it could have been the Bag End cab. I was noticing it during the gig and haven't yet investigated at home. I'll look into it.

 

[CT Corvette]

I have been using My Phil Jones BG 400 with C4 cab since 2017 both indoor and outdoor venues with no issues, but recently bought the BP800 and c8 cab. I can tell you that the c8+c4+bp800 is perfect for any situation on my end at 10 o'clock. As for tone, there is no difference between the bg400 and BP800, depending on the cab configuration. the C8 has deeper response is the only difference in my set up. Sorry i can't help with tone using the bag end 15's as i don not own any.

This is helpful, and probably what I'll do... move towards a set up like yours. I like the PJ tone and just need a setup that works, sounds good, and has enough power so I can concentrate on what I'm supposed to be playing (that's plenty for me!). Thank you!

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hey all,

Looking for some advice on my amp situation. I've been playing a Phil Jones BG 400 on top of a Bag End S15-D for a while and I generally like it. The PJ combo is super clear and the 15 inch Bag End speaker adds a bit of bottom and warmth. It's not a very loud amp though, and every once in a while I need some more head room. Last week I had to push it to the point that the sound was distorting a bit (a big outdoor gig).

I'm wondering if the Phil Jones BP 800 would be a smart upgrade for power with a similar sound to my combo. And if you think so, what cabinet would make sense to stack on top of the Bag End for that head?

Amps and sound is what I struggle with the most as a bassist (I'm not a technical dude at all), so any thoughts or ideas are welcome (am I missing something with my current setup?).

Thank you!

Outdoor gigs are challenging if there is no shell. You didn’t mention the ohm rating of you cab. If it is an 8 ohm cab, you are only getting getting around 200 or so watts out of your PJ head. I’m also not familiar with Bag end cabs and or it’s efficiency rating but I’m not surprised at your experience.

Personally outdoors with FOH support I prefer about 400 watts of power with an efficient cab which can produce about 120 or so decibels. For just about any other application 300 watt powering an efficient cab with FOH support can cover most situations. The same rig can cover a good percentage of indoor gigs without FOH.

it seems to me that outdoors with no reverberation or walls to help, without FOH support I can understand your experience. In that case I would prefer about twice as much power and a second cab.

OTOH, if your Bag End Cab is a 4 ohm cab, and getting the full 400 watts maybe a more powerful head might help, assuming your cab can handle additional wattage.

And this leads me more questions. Do you perform a lot of outdoor concerts? If this was a one off and otherwise your rig is suitable, there may be other less expensive options to improve things. When you are playing outside do you have FOH support? If so, ask for some bass in your monitor mix.

Finally, if you turn down the bass tone control a bit, replace it with more low mids it can clean up your sound and you should be able to hear yourself in the mix better.

Best wishes.

 

[CT Corvette]

Outdoor gigs are challenging if there is no shell. You didn’t mention the ohm rating of you cab. If it is an 8 ohm cab, you are only getting getting around 200 or so watts out of your PJ head. I’m also not familiar with Bag end cabs and or it’s efficiency rating but I’m not surprised at your experience.

Personally outdoors with FOH support I prefer about 400 watts of power with an efficient cab which can produce about 120 or so decibels. For just about any other application 300 watt powering an efficient cab with FOH support can cover most situations. The same rig can cover a good percentage of indoor gigs without FOH.

it seems to me that outdoors with no reverberation or walls to help, without FOH support I can understand your experience. In that case I would prefer about twice as much power and a second cab.

OTOH, if your Bag End Cab is a 4 ohm cab, and getting the full 400 watts maybe a more powerful head might help, assuming your cab can handle additional wattage.

And this leads me more questions. Do you perform a lot of outdoor concerts? If this was a one off and otherwise your rig is suitable, there may be other less expensive options to improve things. When you are playing outside do you have FOH support? If so, ask for some bass in your monitor mix.

Finally, if you turn down the bass tone control a bit, replace it with more low mids it can clean up your sound and you should be able to hear yourself in the mix better.

Best wishes.

Thank you for this... I do play a lot outside through the summer, and then just as many indoor events in the fall, winter and spring (mostly smaller bars). So, I need to be able to cover it all, but I'm not interested in owning and getting to know a lot of different gear. So, am I kidding myself to think that I can put together a rig that does it all?

 

[darwin-bass]

Thanks for pointing all this out... It totally could have been clipping and not distorting (I guess I don't actually know what "distorting" means; I was just using the word to describe the way the tone was changing as I was pushing the rig) ...

Distortion has a couple of meanings. Technically, any circuit pushed beyond it's max voltage gain level will begin to distort the signal. Pure sine waves begin to get clipped at the max voltages. This is distortion. It is also clipping. Same thing. Whether it sounds good or not depends but either way the signal has been clipped and the output is a distorted (altered, changed) version of the input.

But musicians have their own vocabulary that doesn't match the technical side. Terms like drive, gain, volume, master, distortion, and over-drive are used by guitar & bass players in a way that doesn't align with their true engineering meaning. But these usages are useful even if they are not technically correct.

 

[Nebadon2000]

So, am I kidding myself to think that I can put together a rig that does it all?

Maybe sell BG-400 add BP800 and another Bag End 15; if it is 8 ohm version [if speakers are 4 ohm look at Mesa 800 Amps]

Use just 1 1x15 angled or lifted toward ears for Bar Gig's and use both for Outdoor Gig's

The Amp in PBJ combo most likely can get all the volume available from 4x5 cab; So when trying to increase volume many have tendency to keep turning up volume until they overload abilities of either or both Amp and Cab then you start to hear 'Bad Sounds'

According to spec's Bag End is very sensitive 103db at 1 watt and can handle 200 watts continuous and 400 peak so even though PJB BP800 seems overpowered it should be loud enough without using near the power in Amp with plenty of power for peaks to stay clean

You can also try with present system tilting 15 underneath towards ears if can be done safely; Bag End being more efficient will play louder than PJB this may help in hearing yourself better as to not need to crank volume so high

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Thank you for this... I do play a lot outside through the summer, and then just as many indoor events in the fall, winter and spring (mostly smaller bars). So, I need to be able to cover it all, but I'm not interested in owning and getting to know a lot of different gear. So, am I kidding myself to think that I can put together a rig that does it all?

I wouldn’t be that harsh on yourself. There is a little more to this than just throwing money at it buying gear hoping for the best.

I will say the the solution to your problem is knowing where the problem lies. Have you analyzed the efficiency of your cab, do the math to figure out the capability of your rig? “Not enough volume” is not the same as how many dBs you need to be heard.

 

[dunamis]

This thread rocks! So much talent and experience here!

 

[eldoctorbass]

Not to muddy the waters, but kind of adjacent question that maybe doesn't need it's own thread (or, maybe has one, but I didn't find). Does anyone have real-world experience of using two Phil Jones C2 cabs along with an 8ohm 115? I know there may be technical reasons why this is not advisable, but I'm still curious if anyone is doing this out in the wild.