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Double Bass Phil Jones PB-300 with a nice preamp?

#21
Jason Sypher said:
I didn't mean to kill the thread with a Larry reference. Can we talk about the difference between mic/amp and mic/powered cab?
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It's going to come down to how each cab is voiced and personal preference. One PA cab to the next is going to sound a little different, just as one bass cab to the next will also vary.

With a mic I'd lean towards the powered PA cab route, simply because most bass amps are designed with the use of a pickup (and most often an electric bass) in mind.
 
#22
I lugged my bass down to the Guitar Center today and tried a powered QSC K8 with my AMT mic and Realist plugged into my Headway Pre... My intention was to try the K10 but they didn't have one. I was quite impressed with the sound, particularly with the mic. Very true, very transparent. Lovely with the bow. I tried the stand, on a chair and on the floor. I never actually got it to feedback only pushing it to what I would feel comfortable on stage. Those setting were all about 6 (K8, gain, master on EB1). I felt that I was getting into feedback territory though I got quite close to the speaker without incident. The Realist was usable, thicker, but far less interesting than the AMT alone. I suppose a little Realist might be nice in the mix with other instruments playing as it thickens up the mids. I certainly haven't had any better sound onstage. It's not as warm as acoustic, but it was very woody and it sounded like my bass. I can imagine the K10 would add a little warmth. A very economical solution to my needs. Next I'll try the PJB stuff. I could easily live with this set up (even the K8, which was quite small and light)...
 
#23
Jason Sypher said:
I lugged my bass down to the Guitar Center today and tried a powered QSC K8 with my AMT mic and Realist plugged into my Headway Pre... My intention was to try the K10 but they didn't have one. I was quite impressed with the sound, particularly with the mic. Very true, very transparent. Lovely with the bow. I tried the stand, on a chair and on the floor. I never actually got it to feedback only pushing it to what I would feel comfortable on stage. Those setting were all about 6 (K8, gain, master on EB1). I felt that I was getting into feedback territory though I got quite close to the speaker without incident. The Realist was usable, thicker, but far less interesting than the AMT alone. I suppose a little Realist might be nice in the mix with other instruments playing as it thickens up the mids. I certainly haven't had any better sound onstage. It's not as warm as acoustic, but it was very woody and it sounded like my bass. I can imagine the K10 would add a little warmth. A very economical solution to my needs. Next I'll try the PJB stuff. I could easily live with this set up (even the K8, which was quite small and light)...
Click to expand...

nice. thanks for the review.

yea the K8 is cool, but as the boxes get bigger (K10, K12) the frequency responses goes a little lower. Could be good, could be bad. The other trade off is weight; as they get bigger they get heavier.

I'm very curious to hear how the PJB stuff compares.
 
#27
As I scroll through the PB-300 manual I notice that the plugs on the back are 1/4" not XLR.
After spending a little time with the powered QSC the back of the PJB looks rather limited.
And only 250W as compared with the QSC's 1000W (500/500). Then I looked on PBJ and they offer a powered cabinet, the W-10 which, by what I can see, looks interesting. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of photos or info about this cab nor dealers or any sign of a place to buy it online. I did find one reference to $995.... Dig the back of the QSC, now that's some versatility right there. There is little you can't do with one of these cabs.
 

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#28
While looking at specs today on the K10 (I'm prowling eBay for a deal) I realize that it is rated at a frequency range of 56 Hz to 20 kHz. Knowing that the low E on a bass is 42 or so I wonder what that means to me. When I played the K8, which is smaller and has a freq. resp. of 61 Hz - 20 kHz it sounded bassy enough to me. Is this something I should be concerned about? Phil Jones amps have a frequency range of 35 Hz and up....
 
#30
Jason Sypher said:
While looking at specs today on the K10 (I'm prowling eBay for a deal) I realize that it is rated at a frequency range of 56 Hz to 20 kHz. Knowing that the low E on a bass is 42 or so I wonder what that means to me. When I played the K8, which is smaller and has a freq. resp. of 61 Hz - 20 kHz it sounded bassy enough to me. Is this something I should be concerned about? Phil Jones amps have a frequency range of 35 Hz and up....
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about the numbers if your ear says it sounds good. The PJB is very deep, and I never play it without dialing a bunch of those lows out with the fdeck pre. If I were looking at the powered speakers, I'd be looking at the 10 or the 12; not because of the numbers so much, but because I always like to have a little headroom, and because having the speaker up on the pole robs it of bass coupling with the floor.
 
#31
Chris Fitzgerald said:
I wouldn't worry about the numbers if your ear says it sounds good. The PJB is very deep, and I never play it without dialing a bunch of those lows out with the fdeck pre. If I were looking at the powered speakers, I'd be looking at the 10 or the 12; not because of the numbers so much, but because I always like to have a little headroom, and because having the speaker up on the pole robs it of bass coupling with the floor.
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Ditto that.

It's funny, when I started getting nerdy about bass stuff I quickly learned that nice clean flat response down to 30Hz (or even below) is NOT desirable. When I had a setup that went down that low I tended to dial it out. It just gets too boomy and muddy.

Judging from my previous posts you might misjudge my taste -- I like lows in my sound but at a certain point it's just not good.

Down to 50Hz or so is just fine IMHO .. and that's just where it starts to roll off so you are getting stuff below that.

Let your own ears be the judge
 
#32
Just to add to what Chris was saying. The PJB with the two 5 inch speakers firing up is a wonderful way to hear yourself. I'm typically about 4 feet from my amp. The Flightcase is usually off to my right about 3 or 4 feet. I'm not standing over it and the sound and definition is clear as a bell. BTW, I just had my Full Circle retrofitted so the piezo elements are facing up and the threads are also facing upwards. This has made a significant difference in clarity. It also seems that the pick up is driving the amp a bit harder. It seems to be a bit louder at each gain stage in this configuration. An added plus is that this retro fit was not very costly either!

Presently, I'm almost cured of any string addiction (knock on wood); I think I'll also stay away from searching for the perfect pickup as well! :eek::D:eek:
 
#34
Thanks for that link. I have researched the K-8, K-10 and K-12 quite a bit at this point and find that the K-10 is the most highly recommended powered cab out there right now for it's weight and size. There are a few reviews out there that place it second, but only to 15" speaker cabs that weigh twice as much and are much bigger. My idea is to keep things reasonable and lightweight, certainly no more than a nice bass amp would weigh. It looks like a go from my end and I will let everyone know what I find when I get one. Right now it's the money game of trying to save a few bucks and pick one up for less that $699. So far the cheapest I found was on eBay for $629 but I couldn't get it together fast enough and lost it. I'm very excited to have a nice stage sound that integrates perfectly with my mic set-up. More reviews to come.
 
#35
Can we talk about the difference between mic/amp and mic/powered cab?


Chris Fitzgerald said:
In my experience, the only real difference is that a powered cab can go up on a pole and thereby be out of the direct line of the mic - I did this with a bass cab for a bit, and it worked great. Powered cabs have the pole mount built in, which helps, and were not designed with a bass response that figures sitting on the floor into the equation. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but that's been my direct experience.
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Chris,

I bought a Bass Cub recently, based at least partly on your experience, and I do love it.

I still have the dilemma of what to augment my rig with for louder/larger venues. The options I'm considering are these:

1. Add a Phil Jones PBJ PB300 to make a 'mini stack' One advantage here is I could also run the PB300 alone with the new Headway EDP-2 as a pre. (I want to use a mic so the EDP is nice in that it provides phantom power and a notch filter.

2. Get a QSC K10 and use the Headway as a pre. This allows putting the speaker on a pole at ear level, which I like the idea of. I had wondered about lifting a PB300 but Phil is big on floor coupling.

3. An EA doubler with a Wizzy 10 speaker. This might make the Cub redundant in that it is small and light and can be carried in a bag. Still lends itself to mic work (with notch filter and phantom and wizzy could probably go up on a pole).

4. Be 'cheap' and just use my TC electronic bass amp for added volume either by itself of after the Cub or the Headway. (I ran my Eminence thru the TC and Fishman PP last night and it sounded great).

I'm really looking to project a sound which is as close to my bass as possible. I have a Shen 7/8 Willow flatback which sounds GREAT acoustically and also great through the CUB when that is all the volume I need.

I know this is a lot to consider, but I would really appreciate your input on as many of these issues as possible. THANKS!

Rick
 
#36
rickwolff said:
1. Add a Phil Jones PBJ PB300 to make a 'mini stack' One advantage here is I could also run the PB300 alone with the new Headway EDP-2 as a pre. (I want to use a mic so the EDP is nice in that it provides phantom power and a notch filter.
Click to expand...

That would essentially give you a "Ultra"Super Flight Case with a separate microphone channel, which will sound great, and have a bigger low end. I'd consider going with the EDB-2 or a used EDB-1, instead of the EDP 1, because the feature set of the larger unit is much more extensive, especially because you intend to use your ATM 35


rickwolff said:
2. Get a QSC K10 and use the Headway as a pre. This allows putting the speaker on a pole at ear level, which I like the idea of. I had wondered about lifting a PB300 but Phil is big on floor coupling.
Click to expand...

In the Phil Jones literature they emphasize how important it is to have the Flight Case and Super Flight case on the floor with nearby walls, that's part of it's design. I don't think raising it off the floor is an option. Check out Ed Friedland's demo of the two amps on You Tube.
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...u+Tube&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-900 It starts with him playing electric, but later in the video he switches out to the Upright.
rickwolff said:
3. An EA doubler with a Wizzy 10 speaker. This might make the Cub redundant in that it is small and light and can be carried in a bag. Still lends itself to mic work (with notch filter and phantom and wizzy could probably go up on a pole).
Click to expand...

It's definitely the lightest weight, simplest, and most powerful option. The price is also a little less.

rickwolff said:
4. Be 'cheap' and just use my TC electronic bass amp for added volume either by itself of after the Cub or the Headway. (I ran my Eminence thru the TC and Fishman PP last night and it sounded great).
Click to expand...

I'd sure try that for a while, after all you spent your hard earned cash on the TC.


rickwolff said:
I'm really looking to project a sound which is as close to my bass as possible. I have a Shen 7/8 Willow flatback which sounds GREAT acoustically and also great through the CUB when that is all the volume I need.
Rick
Click to expand...

If it sounds great through the cub, maybe you should look at the Super Flight Case as your other amp. Just a thought.

Ric
 
#37
Ric,

I always appreciate and enjoy your thoughtful posts and responses. Thank you!

Ric Vice said:
That would essentially give you a "Ultra"Super Flight Case with a separate microphone channel, which will sound great, and have a bigger low end. I'd consider going with the EDB-2 or a used EDB-1, instead of the EDP 1, because the feature set of the larger unit is much more extensive, especially because you intend to use your ATM 35
Click to expand...

I mis-typed. I meant the EDB-2 which I am trialing and love. The new 'little' one is the EDM-1 which would be fine if I were only running one channel.

Ric Vice said:
If it sounds great through the cub, maybe you should look at the Super Flight Case as your other amp. Just a thought.

Ric
Click to expand...

I assume you mean your newly named "Ultra Super Flight Case". I can still put the Cub up by my ears as a monitor and leave the PB300 on the floor for best sound and just place it in such a way (perhaps a little farther away from me and a little to the side) to prevent any feedback I might otherwise get. Having the two boxes might just give me the best of both worlds.

Rick
 
#38
rickwolff said:
Chris,

I bought a Bass Cub recently, based at least partly on your experience, and I do love it.

I still have the dilemma of what to augment my rig with for louder/larger venues. The options I'm considering are these:

1. Add a Phil Jones PBJ PB300 to make a 'mini stack' One advantage here is I could also run the PB300 alone with the new Headway EDP-2 as a pre. (I want to use a mic so the EDP is nice in that it provides phantom power and a notch filter.

2. Get a QSC K10 and use the Headway as a pre. This allows putting the speaker on a pole at ear level, which I like the idea of. I had wondered about lifting a PB300 but Phil is big on floor coupling.

3. An EA doubler with a Wizzy 10 speaker. This might make the Cub redundant in that it is small and light and can be carried in a bag. Still lends itself to mic work (with notch filter and phantom and wizzy could probably go up on a pole).

4. Be 'cheap' and just use my TC electronic bass amp for added volume either by itself of after the Cub or the Headway. (I ran my Eminence thru the TC and Fishman PP last night and it sounded great).

I'm really looking to project a sound which is as close to my bass as possible. I have a Shen 7/8 Willow flatback which sounds GREAT acoustically and also great through the CUB when that is all the volume I need.

I know this is a lot to consider, but I would really appreciate your input on as many of these issues as possible. THANKS!

Rick
Click to expand...

I'm in a similar situation, so I can only speak to that; I have the CUB for "almost don't need an amp, but would rather not cripple myself" type gigs. Then I have the BG-300 for almost everything else. Lately, I've been playing in a group that includes some indie rock/avant garde type stuff, and the drummer in that group is an absolute beast, therefore pushing the limits of the BG-300 at times. My solution, once I can afford it, will be to try the PJB powered speaker (PB300) and create a mini stack with the BG300. In your shoes, I would try this with the CUB and see how it fit.

In the end, though, it all comes down to this: how much do you like the way the PJB gear sounds with your bass through your pickup as played by your hands? In my case, that's my amplified sound now because it allows me to forget about gear and just play. If that's the case for you, then I'd say it's a no brainer. If not, then find the amp rig that works sound/feelwise for you and work something expandable around that. Gear is interesting and fun and all, but in the end, it's all about what lets you forget about the gear and just focus on the playing. (IMO, kindly, etc.)
 
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#39
;)
rickwolff said:
Ric,
I mis-typed. I meant the EDB-2 which I am trialing and love. The new 'little' one is the EDM-1 which would be fine if I were only running one channel.
Click to expand...

Great, it's just got so many useful features, plus it's a DI which isn't a feature on either of my Walter Woods amplifiers.


rickwolff said:
I assume you mean your newly named "Ultra Super Flight Case". I can still put the Cub up by my ears as a monitor and leave the PB300 on the floor for best sound and just place it in such a way (perhaps a little farther away from me and a little to the side) to prevent any feedback I might otherwise get. Having the two boxes might just give me the best of both worlds.
Rick
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense, my thought was that you might be able to run the Super Flight Case as an extension of the Cub so you had all sizes of gigs covered with the Cub for small gigs, the Super on Medium Gigs with the Headway EDB-2 as your mic pre, and both amps with one as a slave on gigs where you needed a monitor for yourself or just more power, it would of course be more expensive. Super Flight Cases often appear in the TB Classifieds for a reasonable price. Just one possibility among many.

Ric
 

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