Phil Spector, Dead at 81

[LBS-bass]

When you are the product of your grandfather raping your mother, you start off seriously behind the eight ball.

Bundy was what he was for whatever reason. Spector was no different. Both were sociopaths. His abusive behavior in studio sessions are pretty well known. I don't really care what made him what he was.

 

[LBS-bass]

Ike Turner was not a murderer. The first story in any Phil Spector obituary is that he died a convicted murderer. I do not believe anyone here is ignoring his crimes.

So this is confusing. Are you saying Ike deserves more kudos than Phil for the way he treated his ex-wife, since he didn't eventually kill anyone?

 

[bobyoung53]

When you are the product of your grandfather raping your mother, you start off seriously behind the eight ball.

Yes, I actually deleted that post as I thought it over. I try not to judge people although with Bundy it's difficult. I do know that drugs and alcohol are what did Spector in as has been done to a lot of other great musicians, I try to separate the two as you wrote above. I don't forget what they did but can still appreciate their genius, another two that comes to mind are drummer Jim Gordon and Ike Turner. Ike Turner was one of the greatest talent scouts and player/producer/bandleaders in history. Jim Gordon played on hundreds of great records from the 60's through the late 70's. They both paid their price as did Phil. RIP Phil.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Bundy was what he was for whatever reason. Spector was no different. Both were sociopaths. His abusive behavior in studio sessions are pretty well known. I don't really care what made him what he was.

I simply do not see such a bright line between good and bad people. To truly make my point, I would have to get into prohibited topics, and I will not do that.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yes, I actually deleted that post as I thought it over. I try not to judge people although with Bundy it's difficult. I do know that drugs and alcohol are what did Spector in as has been done to a lot of other great musicians, I try to separate the two as you wrote above. I don't forget what they did but can still appreciate their genius, another two that comes to mind are drummer Jim Gordon and Ike Turner. Ike Turner was one of the greatest talent scouts and player/producer/bandleaders in history. Jim Gordon played on hundreds of great records from the 60's through the late 70's. They both paid their price as did Phil. RIP Phil.

Jim Gordon is in jail not far from where I live. He's schizophrenic. Not anywhere close to the same league.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

So this is confusing. Are you saying Ike deserves more kudos than Phil for the way he treated his ex-wife, since he didn't eventually kill anyone?

I simply stated a fact.

 

[bobyoung53]

Bundy was what he was for whatever reason. Spector was no different. Both were sociopaths. His abusive behavior in studio sessions are pretty well known. I don't really care what made him what he was.

Are you a psychologist and if so did you ever examine Phil Spector? I do not believe he was ever diagnosed as a sociopath.

 

[bobyoung53]

Jim Gordon is in jail not far from where I live. He's schizophrenic. Not anywhere close to the same league.

He got that way from drugs, drug induced schizophrenia and he killed his mother, so you do not personally blame Jim because he is a diagnosed schizophrenic? Why do you blame Phil Spector then, do you think he was normal and just liked to act the way he did, got his kicks from killing people and pointing guns at them? Ever think that maybe he went crazy from all the drugs he did?

 

[LBS-bass]

I simply do not see such a bright line between good and bad people. To truly make my point, I would have to get into prohibited topics, and I will not do that.

So you're saying we should cut sociopaths a little slack if they did something that someone found useful, or manage to hold back their impulses so as not to actually murder someone. Ok. I disagree with that. I think the narcissistic, abusive sociopath is purely evil and there's not a lot of wiggle room for me here. I can appreciate their contributions, but I'm not going to celebrate their lives.

I really did say I was leaving this conversation, and I really probably should do what I said. Have fun all. Be sure to remember Michael Jackson while you celebrate this monstrosity. Peace out.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Yes, I actually deleted that post as I thought it over. I try not to judge people although with Bundy it's difficult. I do know that drugs and alcohol are what did Spector in as has been done to a lot of other great musicians, I try to separate the two as you wrote above. I don't forget what they did but can still appreciate their genius, another two that comes to mind are drummer Jim Gordon and Ike Turner. Ike Turner was one of the greatest talent scouts and player/producer/bandleaders in history. Jim Gordon played on hundreds of great records from the 60's through the late 70's. They both paid their price as did Phil. RIP Phil.

I am not certain that to say Phil was made mad by drugs and drink is accurate; seems to me he was fairly mad from the get-go, as Doc Cheese indicated. Remember, Ronnie Spector fled her young husband when he revealed to her the glass coffin he had installed in their basement, and into which he vowed to install her should she ever leave him. No doubt this was some early bout of amphetamine-fulled psychosis, but it went unchecked, and Phil had the fame, the fortune, and solitude provided by both that allowed his madness to blossom into an ongoing psychosis that as the 70's wore on, because a kind of routine that the business actually encouraged, if only by condoning such bad behavior.
The Ramones told the story many times of Phil brandishing a gun at them to keep them in a session, but it was mostly told in the spirt of braggadocio, the way guys would like to be perceived as being unflappable in such situations. I think in some versions of the story, either Dee Dee or Johnny tell Phil to stuff it. In any case, this was never told as a cautionary tale, but as a lark, a bad boy adventure. Phil no doubt read such "rock lit" and played up the act even more. By the time of Lennon's "Rock and Roll" sessions, Phil was almost always wearing a shoulder holster, and would point to the section with his gun when cuing instrumentation during cacophonous sessions.

And the woman Phil eventually shot was not the only female houseguest to be held at gunpoint in that way. She was merely the final, inevitable one.

 

[LBS-bass]

Are you a psychologist and if so did you ever examine Phil Spector? I do not believe he was ever diagnosed as a sociopath.

Well, his own son thought so.

Phil Spector documentary gets OK from killer's son

 

[Dr. Cheese]

So you're saying we should cut sociopaths a little slack if they did something that someone found useful, or manage to hold back their impulses so as not to actually murder someone. Ok. I disagree with that. I think the narcissistic, abusive sociopath is purely evil and there's not a lot of wiggle room for me here. I can appreciate their contributions, but I'm not going to celebrate their lives.

I really did say I was leaving this conversation, and I really probably should do what I said. Have fun all. Be sure to remember Michael Jackson while you celebrate this monstrosity. Peace out.

I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth. I said that in order to make my point, I would have to broach prohibited topics, and I said I would not do that. Anything else you say is a product of lurid imagination on your part.

 

[marchone]

Lennon went out of his way to praise the Spector "Let It Be" patch job in his legendary Rolling Stone Interview. Of course, Spector had also just done Plastic Ono Band, and would soon produce its follow up, Imagine. In between which, Spector was producing Harrison's stuff. The fact that John and George were willing to wait on Spector for their respective sessions bespeaks their preference for him. They were Beatles, and as such could have anyone at the desk.

Lennon, moreover, considered Phil a foil. The idea for a stripped-down Plastic Ono Band was not the work of a producer trying to set perimeters to reinvigorate the artist, but the exact opposite: John wanted to deny Phil his full train set and toy set, the better to focus him on the program of stripped-raw emotion. So in this sense Phil was a true foil and creative partner, at least as Lennon desired and forged it.
I think Lennon liked Phil, too, as a sort of demonic to himself. Lennon could be testy and bullying, and he liked it in his partners such as Phil, and also Alan Klein, who carried himself like a mobster, much to Lennon's delight. Check out the YouTube film "John Lennon rages for a full minute" to see how surly and abusive John could be in the studio, while Phil stands meekly by.

That was illuminating, thank you. As a listener at the time of release I found the discernible audio effects very un-Beatle-like. Spector may very well have been a positive influence on their studio behavior. It's been said they all snapped to attention and acted very professionally when Clapton came in for his time with them. Apparently they weren't always kind to each other. That was an interesting YouTube video, thanks. I watched a bit of another too. All of that very normal activity was managed all of the time so not known to the public. Even early marriages were omitted from official press.

 

[bobyoung53]

Well, his own son thought so.

Phil Spector documentary gets OK from killer's son

Was his son a psychologist? That word gets thrown around a lot but there are certain criteria to be diagnosed with it. He was definitely nuts, that much is for sure, sociopaths just have no conscience, there are plenty of successful sociopaths in the business and political world that aren't violent.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Well, his own son thought so.

Phil Spector documentary gets OK from killer's son

Many people who research the justice would say that your faith in the justice system filtering the mentally ill out of prisons is not borne out by the evidence. I am now done with this spread. If you respond to my finals posts, I will not reply.

 

[Son of Wobble]

That was illuminating, thank you. As a listener at the time of release I found the discernible audio effects very un-Beatle-like. Spector may very well have been a positive influence on their studio behavior. It's been said they all snapped to attention and acted very professionally when Clapton came in for his time with them. Apparently they weren't always kind to each other. That was an interesting YouTube video, thanks. I watched a bit of another too. All of that very normal activity was managed all of the time so not known to the public. Even early marriages were omitted from official press.

Amazing how much Beatle lore keeps coming to light...One could imagine there was an unexamined moment in their respective timelines.
But lately I've been reading about Lennon's secret love Alma Coogan, who John's wife Cynthia thought made a bigger impression on her husband than Yoko eventually did! Guess we'll get the indie love film in a couple years....

 

[LBS-bass]

Many people who research the justice would say that your faith in the justice system filtering the mentally ill out of prisons is not borne out by the evidence.

I didn't say the mentally ill didn't end up in prison. Didn't you read what I posted about Jim Gordon? I'm not going to stomp on this parade anymore. Y'all wanna send up fireworks in memory of this guy, have at it. I'm done.

 

[bobyoung53]

I am not certain that to say Phil was made mad by drunks and drink is accurate; seems to me he was fairly mad from the get-go, as Doc Cheese indicated. Remember, Ronnie Spector fled her young husband when he revealed to her the glass coffin he had installed in their basement, and into which he vowed to install her should she ever leave him. No doubt this was some early bout of amphetamine-fulled psychosis, but it went unchecked, and Phil had the fame, the fortune, and solitude provided by both that allowed his madness to blossom into an ongoing psychosis that as the 70's wore on, because a kind of routine that the business actually encouraged, if only by condoning such bad behavior.
The Ramones told the story many times of Phil brandishing a gun at them to keep them in a session, but it was mostly told in the spirt of braggadocio, the way guys would like to be perceived as being unflappable in such situations. I think in some versions of the story, either Dee Dee or Johnny tell Phil to stuff it. In any case, this was never told as a cautionary tale, but as a lark, a bad bod adventure. Phil no doubt read such "rock lit" and played up the act even more. By the time of Lennon's "Rock and Roll" sessions, Phil was almost always wearing a shoulder holster, and would point to the section with his gun when cuing instrumentation during cacophonous sessions.

And the woman Phil eventually shot was not the only female houseguest to be held at gunpoint in that way. She was merely the final, inevitable one.

That makes sense but I wouldn't think drugs would help in that situation either, many people with latent mental problems fully bloom after doing a lot of drugs.

 

[LBS-bass]

Was his son a psychologist? That word gets thrown around a lot but there are certain criteria to be diagnosed with it. He was definitely nuts, that much is for sure, sociopaths just have no conscience, there are plenty of successful sociopaths in the business and political world that aren't violent.

It's true. But there are some who are. I think that you'll find that certain personality issues are present in most people who commit murder. Those issues might be present in people who don't commit murder, too, but commission of murder is simply an escalation that doesn't always happen, depending on circumstances. And goodnight. I'm really out now. Enjoy your love for this guy. I get that he did things that you thought were really cool when y'all were kids. I just don't think that's what he needs to be remembered for.

 

[bobyoung53]

It's true. But there are some who are. I think that you'll find that certain personality issues are present in most people who commit murder. Those issues might be present in people who don't commit murder, too, but commission of murder is simply an escalation that doesn't always happen, depending on circumstances. And goodnight. I'm really out now. Enjoy your love for this guy.

I don't love the guy, i love his music, got bad news for you, I love Ike Turner's music too. I love Jim Gordon's drumming too. People commit murder for many different reasons, what's the common thread? They killed someone.