Picking 16ths. Starting with an upstroke?

[MCS4]

Fat Mike from NOFX always starts off with an upstroke.

Tony Campos from Static X, Fear Factory, Ministry, etc. is the same, and he said in an interview that it wasn't until he started working with Fear Factory that he forced himself to also be able to learn to play well when starting with a downstroke because it seemed to be needed for the feel of some of those songs.

 

[mambo4]

Carol Kaye's technique starts on a down stroke

 

[monsterthompson]

Buckethead does all upstrokes on occasions.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Buckethead does all upstrokes on occasions.

And?
From now on, all bass players from TB must play the fast 16ths only as upstrokes?
Would I set a goal for myself to start playing fast 16ths as upstrokes?
NO!
If Flea plays Slap with his thumb down, do I change it also?
NO!

 

[GringoSalsero]

After 40 years, do you think about your right hand? I don't. Try all different things. Practice, Practice, practice. After a while, you won't think anymore.

 

[rickdog]

I use Roundabout by Chris Squire of Yes as my go to Apogee of pick facility, been trying to get that one down for 40 years!

When you've mastered Roundabout, move on to Heart of the Sunrise... I don't think I have enough years left to get that one down

FWIW, when I use a pick, I try to start with a downstroke on the beat, feels most natural to me.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

When you've mastered Roundabout, move on to Heart of the Sunrise... I don't think I have enough years left to get that one down

I can barely play it, but not at full tempo. I never have mastered the bizarre count on some of the pauses, I just sort of "feel it". I think the Talkbass guy has a count worked out for it someplace. "Mastered" is probably never going to happen, I can't seem to get past around 108 BPM before my picking dissolves into chaos. I'll keep hacking away at it, regardless.

 

[monsterthompson]

And?
From now on, all bass players from TB must play the fast 16ths only as upstrokes?
Would I set a goal for myself to start playing fast 16ths as upstrokes?
NO!
If Flea plays Slap with his thumb down, do I change it also?
NO!

Yes. You have correctly understood my post.

 

[31HZ]

You could just play 8th notes.

 

[Les Fret]

When playing with a pick as a general rule play the down beat with a downstroke. Just follow your foot if you tap along. Your foot also goes down on the down beat and up on the ‘in between’ notes. Playing up strokes on the down beat feels very illogical and is not common.

 

[rickdog]

I can barely play it, but not at full tempo. I never have mastered the bizarre count on some of the pauses, I just sort of "feel it". I think the Talkbass guy has a count worked out for it someplace. "Mastered" is probably never going to happen, I can't seem to get past around 108 BPM before my picking dissolves into chaos. I'll keep hacking away at it, regardless.

IIRC, Heart of the Sunrise is about 144 bpm....

I might have a transcription of the bass line somewhere, I'll look for it. You read standard musical notation?

 

[pbass2]

Don’t over think it.

 

[Groove Doctor]

What I’ve found works better is a mixture of 8th and 16th notes that conveys the same drive but doesn’t get you all tangled up.

Try patterns like
1 +a 2 +a 3e+a 4 +a | 1 etc.

 

[Ritter667]

Do some alternate picking exercises, including string skips.

As far as I am concerned fanatically sticking to alternate picking exclusively is utterly pointless, but practicing alternate picking on the other hand makes for a verry effective exercise that will increase your control over the pick, and general pick picking skills.

As far as whether you start with a downstroke or upstroke when you are actually performing/recording, if you prefer the sound and feel of that. doesn't matter.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

When playing with a pick as a general rule play the down beat with a downstroke. Just follow your foot if you tap along. Your foot also goes down on the down beat and up on the ‘in between’ notes. Playing up strokes on the down beat feels very illogical and is not common.

That's a good explanation.

 

[Eilif]

Thanks to everyone who had been offering advice. Allot of good suggestions.

Feel free to add anything else I should know about this.

For Streets, I use one finger -- down & up (with the fingernail) strokes. It's tiring at first, but doable. When you wear out the index finger, you can move on to the middle! What I like about this option is that I can really place the rhythm regularly and naturally, better than I can with a pick (on this song at least, I do use a pick occasionally for other songs).

I'll give this a try.



I've got until Nov 2nd to work up something ...

 

[Lobster11]

OK, here are a couple of unrelated (to each other) thoughts:

First, I'm a believer in strict alternation with a pick, with downstrokes on downbeats a la Carol Kaye. (This gets complicated with triplets, but that's another topic.) So, if I'm coming in on the one, it's a downstroke. However, when I'm getting ready to start a line of 16ths (or 8ths at high tempo) I often like to start with a quick pickup note corresponding to the last 16th (or 8th) note of the previous bar, in which case I use an upstroke so I'm using a downstroke on the one of the first full bar. I wonder if some of you who like to start with an upstroke are actually doing this without realizing it (?).

Second, as far as developing the speed and endurance to play those lines, the received wisdom is generally to slow it down to a tempo you can handle, and then gradually increase the speed until you can play the part at tempo. However, another way to accomplish this allows you to practice at tempo from the start, and is the method I prefer. If you're able to play one bar of 16ths at the given tempo without error, start by playing that one bar of 16ths and then "rest" by just playing 8ths or 4ths for the next three bars -- and then repeat. Once you can do this comfortably, move on to playing two bars of 16ths and then resting with two bars of 8ths or 4ths. Etc. The idea behind this is that the problem in playing such lines is not so much speed as it is endurance, which you can build up by giving yourself "breaks" as necessary so your technique doesn't break down.

 

[enricogaletta]

Using a pick is very similar in concept to the double thumb technique in slap. The best approach is alternate picking, just like with fingerstyle. If you have a solid 1–2 fingerstyle technique, as you know, you can play almost anything, even at fast tempos, without needing to bring in extra fingers. The key is consistent alternation.
The same applies to the pick. There is no single “correct” way to start. The best way is the one that feels most natural and comfortable to you. Some players prefer starting with a downstroke, others with an upstroke. In the end, if starting with an upstroke gives you solid timing, good tone, and it feels right for the part you’re playing, then go for it.
Don’t worry about matching what others do. Focus on what gives you the sound and groove you need. As long as your timing is solid and you feel comfortable, you’ll be able to tackle any bassline, even at high speeds.
Let’s Groove.

 

[Eilif]

UPDATE:
Thanks again to everyone for all the advice and encouragement!

I've switched to a thin pick and it's made it alot easier. I can almost get through "Where the Streets Have No Name" at full tempo without screwing up too often and it gets tighter each evening. I'm feeling pretty good for someone who has never really used a flat pick (some fingerpicking on pedal steel but that's quite different) before.I've got just over a week to go until the Audition. I'll let you all know how it goes.

As for the initial subject, the faster and more comfortable I get the less it seems to matter whether I start up or down.

One more question for you all.

When you're picking, is your index finger pointed towards the string, slightly back towards the palm or fully back towards the palm?

 

[Lobster11]

When you're picking, is your index finger pointed towards the string, slightly back towards the palm or fully back towards the palm?

Toward the string, with the thumb parallel to the string.