Picking 16ths. Starting with an upstroke?

[Eilif]

Update 10/23. post #39

Is this ok?

I've got to nail a couple songs (including Where the Streets Have No Name)with fast picked 16ths in less than 3 weeks but I've been almost exclusively fingers for nearly 40 years.

I'm starting out slow, keeping my arm relaxed and moving with the wrist. I'm trying to start with downstrokes, but hitting the 1 on an upstroke feels much more natural

Is this normal? Is it bad?

Any other suggestions on getting my picking (or just playing) up to speed would be welcome. I just haven't had to play much 16ths or with a pick the last couple decades and now I have to!

 

[Lo-E]

I'm in the same boat, more or less. Fingers-only for about 35 years, then pick sometimes but not wholeheartedly for a few years and I only started taking the pick seriously about two years ago. I find starting on the downstroke more natural but I'm not sure it matters all that much. Consistency between up and downstrokes is the real key, IMO. As for building up speed, I recommend trying to play as relaxed and evenly as possible and with as light a touch as possible at slow tempos and don't increase the metronome until it feels totally comfortable. It's slow going. I still have miles to go. Much of my playing is still fingerstyle so I don't devote all my practice to pick playing but I'm spending more and more time on it.

If you can find it, I saw a video somewhere that analyzed Bobby Vega's pick technique and I found it pretty informative. I just wish I could remember where I saw it!

 

[JonathanPDX]

If you are most comfortable playing with your fingers why do you need to use a pick for these songs? Wouldn't it make more sense to learn them with the techniques you've already mastered?

 

[buldog5151bass]

Whatever works. I'm mostly a fingers player. For almost 4 decades, I started with my index finger in a two-finger techn. Then a few years ago, I broke that finger, and couldn't use it for a month. Since then, I've started with my middle finger. I still play just as quickly and accurately.

So if it works, it works. But I'd say for pick, not holding it too tightly works best.

 

[rstephens]

Fat Mike from NOFX always starts off with an upstroke.

 

[Krakmann]

Salud!

When I have to play very fast runs with the pick, I also play better starting with an upstroke. I see no problem there. If it gets the job done...

 

[Eilif]

I'm in the same boat, more or less. Fingers-only for about 35 years, then pick sometimes but not wholeheartedly for a few years and I only started taking the pick seriously about two years ago. I find starting on the downstroke more natural but I'm not sure it matters all that much. Consistency between up and downstrokes is the real key, IMO. As for building up speed, I recommend trying to play as relaxed and evenly as possible and with as light a touch as possible at slow tempos and don't increase the metronome until it feels totally comfortable. It's slow going. I still have miles to go. Much of my playing is still fingerstyle so I don't devote all my practice to pick playing but I'm spending more and more time on it.

If you can find it, I saw a video somewhere that analyzed Bobby Vega's pick technique and I found it pretty informative. I just wish I could remember where I saw it!

Thanks, I'll look it up. I'm trying to take it slow.

If you are most comfortable playing with your fingers why do you need to use a pick for these songs? Wouldn't it make more sense to learn them with the techniques you've already mastered?

Two reasons.

First, I'm not sure I can pump 16ths at 126 bpm for an extended time even with my fingers.

Second, it is a pretty distinctively picked sound and they want to nail way it sounds live.

 

[Mojo34]

For Streets, I use one finger -- down & up (with the fingernail) strokes. It's tiring at first, but doable. When you wear out the index finger, you can move on to the middle! What I like about this option is that I can really place the rhythm regularly and naturally, better than I can with a pick (on this song at least, I do use a pick occasionally for other songs).

 

[Geogio]

Never really thought about it... and I play with my hand and plectrum both on bass and use various types of guitars... also arco on violin and cello.

After some thought I think it various quite a bit depending the attack, the tempo, the phrasing, the "roll" the pinch... the desired effect.

The plectrum is but one tool in the arsenal.

 

[Deleted member 394181]

Doesnt matter, just dont get lost. Maybe unhelpful but, if you want to get your
fast picking together check out Status Quo stuff during the mid to late 70's "Frantic Four" period. My endurance is good to go now as a result.

 

[Dana R Gregory]

I mostly play with fingers but when I use a pick, I always play down stroke, Dee Dee Ramone style. It provides a smooth yet driving bass line.

 

[IanStephenson]

In the short term - whatever works for you.

Longer term, ideally you'd want to be able to play starting on either the up or the down, with similar results, as it allows you to minimise hand movement. In the same way (as buldogbass5151 says) when play with fingers you might have a preference to start with a particular finger one the one, but ideally you'd want to be able to play both ways because sometimes your preferred finger is just in the wrong place.

For example if you're playing on a higher string and move back to the E string, your hand is already moving upwards, so moving it up just to move it back down is slower than picking the E on the way back up.

If your aim is to get great at pick, try playing every exercise both ways. If you just need to get through this song, then do whatever you need to do.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I have advancing thumb joint arthritis that has made fingerstyle increasingly painful, so I've switched almost exclusively to pick. It's definitely slow going, took me a while to relax my arm and hand, and I still tend to tense up when playing faster. The "pinch" motion is still a little painful, but paradoxically that encourages me to keep a light touch on the pick. After trying a bunch of different picks, I'm back to Fender mediums, which mike to around .071 mm. The pick thickness can be deceptive though, some are harder or softer based on material. mess around witha bunch, most people seem to settle on a "medium" pick of some sort. I've been doing a ton of metronome work, pretty much all 1/16ths, chromatic runs, string switching, scales, etc. I seem to hit a "wall" around 108 BPM though, that may be as good as it gets for most stuff, and I have to warm up to it every time. Check out some videos by Bobby Vega and Corey Wright, thay have it DOWN, but its a very specific funk style, like Rocco Prestia with a pick. I use Roundabout by Chris Squire of Yes as my go to Apogee of pick facility, been trying to get that one down for 40 years! If there's a shortcut, I haven't found it. It's a fundamentally unatural disconnect between you and the strings, but it's gradually starting to feel like an extension of them, like a mutant fingernail.if an upstroke feels more natural ona particular, do it, no rules here.

 

[KenSmithFan]

Just because something “feels” natural doesn’t mean it’s the best solution. I say this all the time - plucking with my thumb felt natural, then plucking with my index finger felt natural, then alternating with two fingers felt natural, then playing with a pick felt natural. BUT everything felt unnatural at first.

Second, just because some famous person does something doesn’t mean it will work for you. It’s about the dumbest justification ever.

Having said that, RECORD yourself doing it both ways. Which actually sounds better? No one sat in a room and came up with a bunch of standards and then forced them on everyone. Standards come from what works for most people. We’re not all the special little snowflakes we like to think we are.

You probably have thousands of hours playing with your fingers. You aren’t going to achieve the same level of proficiency with a pick in a few weeks. I see it all the time. Someone grabs a pick and two minutes later declares they just can’t sound good with one.

Give it a go, record yourself, then do what works best for you. Good luck.

 

[Lo-E]

For Streets, I use one finger -- down & up (with the fingernail) strokes.

I use this technique sometimes also. Very useful. I think I read about Geddy Lee using it, tried it, and found it to be valuable and didn’t require a lot of practice to get it down.

Mike Watt sometimes uses a similar technique but with two fingers. He’s jokingly referred to it as “the flipper.”

…like a mutant fingernail.

Didn’t Mutant Fingernail open for The Residents a few times?

 

[Mojo34]

Indeed, I got the idea from a video with Geddy... it works, and is not difficult. For me, it works with Streets very well.

 

[DrBnz]

My first choice would be to use one finger.... flick it just like a pick. If you want to use a pick I'd use a Tortex .88 and I'd just practice with it and 16ths. It needs to feel right. I keep only a small portion of the pick exposed. I don't put a death grip on it, its actually a "little" loose. Work on just hitting the tip of the pick - vice plowing thru the string. I often can feel the string with with my fingers. That's how close I am to it. But once I get it right, I can fly. I often start on the up stroke just cause it feels right. Ignore that

 

[Whousedtoplay]

First, I'm not sure I can pump 16ths at 126 bpm for an extended time even with my fingers.

Yes, playing the 16ths at 126 bpm without a pick is really difficult unless you diminish the articulation value of those notes and invent some "subpar" techniques like playing with your finger nail.
I know I know, some people use their nail/s and are very content with it; therefore, there is no need to argue about it.

Many years ago, I've become a finger player only, but if I need to play something similar to "Streets Have No Names"(constant 16ths,) I could use the pick and start with a down-stroke - a regular 16ths movement down and up with my wrist (and slightly, the elbow.)

 

[brianrost]

Yes, playing the 16ths at 126 bpm without a pick is really difficult unless you diminish the articulation value of those notes and invent some "subpar" techniques like playing with your finger nail.

This…at fast tempos a pick can be better than using fingers. Of course, it requires a lot of practice with up/down alternation to achieve that sort of speed.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This…at fast tempos a pick can be better than using fingers. Of course, it requires a lot of practice with up/down alternation to achieve that sort of speed.

Depending on the accentuation of those 16ths notes, I tend to change my wrist's movement.
Let's say, for the song like, "Streets No Names," I would play the 16ths continuously Down/Up/Down/Up, but if you have a16th note groove that includes
different accents, ghost notes, then, I feel more confidant interrupting the regular Down/Up movement.
It's almost mimicking the drum player.

Here is a simple example: