Double Bass Pickups Of Yesteryear

[LHbassist]

As many of you already know, it seems to be a never ending quest- to get the sound of our basses out through an amplification system, that sounds as good as a high quality mic in a studio environment.
Nothing has ever come close- not even my ATM 350.. just too problematic live, but really good through a PA, or in low volume level situations. Impossible with a drummer right next to me- or foldbacks you cant escape from.
I've been watching You Tube videos, for a long time- of killer bassists, some no longer with us. I'm pretty sure many of these players are using pickups in these vids. A lot of cats in the 50's through early- mid sixties, either stood a foot or two from a mic- or had a mic wrapped in foam or a towel, stuck either in-between the tailpiece and the top- or in the arch of the bridge. Later on, its audibly different, there seems to be numerous types of pickups in use. I try to see what they are- in most cases, the pickup is not visible for reasons of camera proximity, player position, obstacles, or lighting. I really want to know, what kinds of pickups the older players used. I saw a Woody Shaw video with (mod edit) Stafford James on bass. He was a killer bassist. His tone, is obviously amplified, and just sounds great. The sound of the open 'E' string on his bass was amazing. Watched a vid of Herbie Hancock "Toys" from about 1971-72. Buster Williams playing his ass off, on his Hawkes, on guts! My favorite Buster tone era. Same thing- I'm pretty sure he's using a pickup. Can't tell what it is.
I think the pickups of that time were- Polytone, Barcus Berry, and perhaps early Underwoods. I still own a Polytone brass arch of the bridge mount, and had a DeArmond contact mic pickup, that pressed down on the top. I'd imagine some cats - like Buster, for example, still use the same pickup they have used for years.. Buster seems to always have a Fishman BP-100 on his bridge... I may be wrong, but even with EQ, you can hear the sound of it clearly. I remember Ron Carter endorsing Polytone and Underwood pickups in the 70's. His CTI stuff, seems to be mostly pickup sound.
I know a lot of players are using newer pickups now- but I would like to know if there are any bassists out there, that were, or are friends with these Veteran bassists, and know what they used back in the day.

 

[lurk]

Imo the best of those early pickups was the Barques Berry (sp?) that was built into the bridge. You had to buy a new bridge and have it fitted. Not cheap. The next step for me was the brass Polytone that fitted between the bridge feet. My bridge still bears the marks from that one. The Underwood and Fishman were the big quantum leap forward.

 

[Basso Profondo]

I still use the Underwood that I bought back in the early '80s, I tried a few others over the decades but like that one the best. I found that for me the trick was to find the "Goldilocks" zone with regards to the pressure on the pickup, if it is jammed in too tightly into the bridge or too loose it's no good...got to be "just right" which for me is enough pressure to just hold it in without falling out.
Having said that, I have some moods where I prefer that old sound of standing a foot or two from the mic and using the thick old gut strings.

 

[Ric Vice]

Imo the best of those early pickups was the Barques Berry (sp?) that was built into the bridge. You had to buy a new bridge and have it fitted. Not cheap. The next step for me was the brass Polytone that fitted between the bridge feet. My bridge still bears the marks from that one. The Underwood and Fishman were the big quantum leap forward.

Well,
They surely sounded better than the Barcus Berry Silver Bar and their preamp I owned at the time. But since the transducer was imbedded in the center of the bridge they weren't that great, and for some reason their bridges were prone to warping. My first was indeed the Polytone. but since I have a 5/8 bass with a smaller bridge, we had to use a lathe to shorten the knurled screw end and it always fell out. I had a Toby 4 element magnetic pickup, it sounded like a big fretless electric bass. So the Underwood was my first decent pickup. God bless Buster, but his sound through, a Realist? Fishman? into a big P.A. was excruciating when he played the ISB at Colorado State (perhaps it was the sound engineers) . In St. Louis at the Bistro the sound was beautiful, but that was in the 1980's. I've had great results with the Ehrlund EAP and Remic 5400's granted nothing's perfect but they are re a quantum leap ahead of the Underwood for me. Just my take of course. He is after "Buster Williams" and his heart, musicality and soul are unquestionable.

 

[Wasnex]

I played a bass with the Barcus Berry that was glued onto the bridge and a proprietary BB buffer that run off an AAA battery velcroed to the tail piece. This was was one of the best pickups I have used to date, but it did give the bass sort of an EUB quality. Way better than my personal Underwood or the Fishman BP100s that were installed on most of the basses I used over my career. I was always able to get a usable sound off the Underwood and Fishman BP100, but a lot of corrective EQ was required, even with a proper buffer. I thought my Underwood was slightly better than the Fishman.

The BB pickup looked a bit like three pieces sawed up pop-sickle stick epoxied to the top of the bridge. The bridge was straight and remained stable for the four years I played the bass. I believe the pickup was bought separately and installed after the fact.

I had a chance to play one of the Barcus Berry B3150 clamp pickups on the same bass and it was horrible, but I did not have the buffer that goes with the pickup. The glued on pickup had a 3.5mm plug and the BB3150 used a RCA so they were not compatible.

Here are images that I believe are representative of a Barcus Berry bridge.

The pickup I am talking about was glued onto the bridge, so not like this.

The last pickup I used professionally was the original Realist. The bowed response was way better than the Fishman BP100. I would say the BP100 was marginally better for pizz, but overall the Realist was a better choice as my job was about 50/50, pizz/arco.

The Realist was not great with the last bass I played professionally (Lakeburg Baer). This instrument was very resonant, and the Realist seemed to overemphasize resonance of the body a bit too much. This caused the amplified sound be a bit boxey, and I could not correct with EQ. A bridge mounted pickup would have probably been a better choice on this bass, but I was getting old and a bit cynical by this time. It was not long until I crossed to become an audio tech.

The person who replaced me as a bass player eventually bought a Ehrlund EAP. This was a few years later at a different organization, so the Ehrlund was never put on the Lakeburg Baer, but it was by far the most mic-like contact pickup I have heard on the basses he tried it on.

 

[Don Kasper]

Pickups of Yester-Century?
Re: Buster Williams - here he is in a 1988 live performance using a Fishman BP-100 (look for the 2 brass clips on his bridge and the Fishman afterlength output jack), and (those awful?) LaBella Nylon wrapped strings.
He's using a very light touch/lots of amp.....as you can see/hear in some of the video.
Note the sound-person having feedback issues throughout the first tune with Buster's bass - there appears to be 1 HOT Note (a "G") on the bass which ROARS throughout the track.
I'm not a fan of this pickup and string combination - I did use a Fishman BP-100 for a while. Hated it. Even with their Preamp. (Never tried the LaBella's - ya can't bow 'em! WTAF?)
I do love Buster's playing - put your flamethrowers away.
IMFO, of course, as always.

 

[Martin Beer]

I definitely like the early 70s Buster sound better than the '88 example above. That 70s stanky pickup/amp sound, but with gut attack, was an interesting combo. And I feel like that type of sound blends better with the Rhodes Herbie was on back then than it does with acoustic piano.

 

[lurk]

We're very lucky to have the gear we have now. Lifeline, full circle, that Japanese adjuster pickup, Realist. All relatively cheap and much better, not to mention the Eap and all those great preamps. I'm a Tonedexter guy myself. But, I gotta say, I have had great experiences listening to great players with old school pickups. Buster, Fred Hopkins, Red Mitchell with bp100. Ron C, Charlie Haden, and Rufus with a BBerry. Ray Brown with the Polytone. All these guys captivated with their live amplified sound.

 

[Inky13]

My first pickup was called a FRAP that glued onto the bridge and ran to an outboard pre. Still have it somewhere but the cable broke and simply re-connecting it did not work. Anyone else familiar with this? Zero recollection of how or where I got it.

 

[Wasnex]

Here's a pickup comparison that some of you may find relevant.


Something to keep in mind is results can vary from one bass to the next. For example, in this video I thought the Fishman BP-100 sounded better than the Underwood. But every time I have compared the two pickups I thought the Underwood sounded slightly better. I probably have done more gigs on a BP-100 than any other pickup, but I pretty much played whatever was available when I arrived.

Although I always go a useable sound out of the BP-100, it was always a lot of work IMHO. My goal was to EQ the sound so it was more natural.

Soapbox Time: (All IMHO so YMMV)
It's a lot more useful to hear a comparison like this were the direct sound from the pickup is presented in comparison to a nice mic'ed sound of the bass, than a video where the acoustic sound of the bass is mixed with the sound of the pickup run through an amp. This recording gives me an idea of what the bass sounds like acoustically; then it let's me hear how several pickups translate the sound of the same bass.

When you mic the acoustic sound of your bass and the tone of your amp, it's really hard to get any sort of feel for how the pickup is influencing the tone. Is the bass sound dominating or is the amp/pickup sound dominating. Also how exactly is the amp impacting the sound? Since I don't own the amp, I don't have the slightest idea.

At the very least, it would be beneficial to hear the mic'ed sound of the bass, the direct sound of the pickup, then a composite of the acoustic sound of the bass with the pickup run through an amp. But what I am most interested in hearing is the direct sound of the pickup..just the pickup straight into a buffer/preamp.

Just my two cents.

 

[bassmanbrent]

I think you have to match the pickup to the bass to a certain degree too. Some basses just sound better with certain pickups, even if those pickups are considered to be of a lower quality. I'm pretty sure Marc Johnson used a BP-100 on his very expensive Italian bass for many years, after comparing everything available at the time, and I don't anyone's ever criticized his sound My old Czech/German shop bass sounded quite a bit better with a BP-100 than an Underwood too, which still surprises me when I think back.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

@LHbassist AFAIK Stafford James is alive and living in Chicago.

 

[LHbassist]

@LHbassist AFAIK Stafford James is alive and living in Chicago.

DAMN! Where did I see that he passed? I must have him mixed up with someone else.. he's a great bassist, his work with Shaw is just amazingly good.
I'm going to edit my O.P.- oops, I don't know how to edit my original thread post...

Thanks, Eric!

 

[AGCurry]

Imo the best of those early pickups was the Barques Berry (sp?) that was built into the bridge. You had to buy a new bridge and have it fitted.

My first bass, in 1975, was a Kay with one of those Barcus-Berry bridges. When that bass was smashed in a band-bus accident, I cut out the part of the bridge containing the pickup and glued it onto the bridge of my new Schroetter bass. I knew nothing about amplifying piezos, so I ran it straight into my amp, put up with the quack, and tried to EQ it out as much as possible. Also had to tape up the f-holes to mitigate feedback.

Virtually any contemporary pickup is better than that.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

DAMN! Where did I see that he passed? I must have him mixed up with someone else.. he's a great bassist, his work with Shaw is just amazingly good.
I'm going to edit my O.P.- oops, I don't know how to edit my original thread post...

Thanks, Eric!

Fixed.

 

[longfinger]

Once thing I notice in watching videos on youtube of small jazz combos performing for TV, was how physically distant the performers are from each other, like many meters apart. It makes using microphones a lot easier.

 

[Bruce Calin]

My first pickup was called a FRAP that glued onto the bridge and ran to an outboard pre. Still have it somewhere but the cable broke and simply re-connecting it did not work. Anyone else familiar with this? Zero recollection of how or where I got it.

I had a FRAP pickup that I got in the early '70's. It was advertised in the ISB magazine and I think was developed by Fred Lyman(I'm not sure about that). You could supposedly stick it anywhere on the bass, like the Ehrlund EAP. It was ridiculously expensive for the time and didn't work for me at all- never found a good spot for it. It was one of many that I tried that have been mentioned here. I saw NHOP in the '80's and he was using a Wilson at the time- not sure it was his personal instrument. The Wilson had individual little capsules for each string that were drilled into the bridge. Little wires connected each one to a junction connector and were prone to damage. Another expensive one I never tried and forget the name of had little pieces that fit under each string where it crossed the bridge and had to be fitted by the company that sold it. You had to send them your bridge or buy one from them and have it fitted. Another more contemporary one is the B-Band Statement- a combination of the Underwood and Realist with a blending preamp. It worked okay but also was kind of a pain to install and didn't hold up very well for me. You have to admire the creativity of all of these different designs, even if they had their problems. Having the same bass for all this time made it possible to try the various pickups on the same instrument which eliminated that variable. I have had good results more recently with the Ehrlund and an old Clevinger from the '80s that I think he still makes on special order. I wish I could remember the names of all the various ones I tried at one time of another. There had to have been dozens.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I saw Freddy Hubbard at the U.or Nebraska in probably 1970 or so with Mickey Bass( I think) on bass. He was using a BP-100 and Freddy kept going back and turning him up until it howled and you still couldn't hear the bass at all. I think that affected the way I considered that pickup even though I tried it with not very good results later. I also remember that concert because they had to move a Leslie organ speaker off the stage and turned it sideways and dumped the oil in it all over the floor-funny what sticks in your head 50 years later.

 

[rickwolff]

My first pickup (actually this IS a picture of me)

By the way: that $37.50 is worth $405 in 2020 dollars.

 

[Ric Vice]

I saw Freddy Hubbard at the U.or Nebraska in probably 1970 or so with Mickey Bass( I think) on bass. He was using a BP-100 and Freddy kept going back and turning him up until it howled and you still couldn't hear the bass at all. I think that affected the way I considered that pickup even though I tried it with not very good results later. I also remember that concert because they had to move a Leslie organ speaker off the stage and turned it sideways and dumped the oil in it all over the floor-funny what sticks in your head 50 years later.

I talked to Don Underwood once, and what he told me was that Fishman could not use a 2 element bridge wing pickup, because he had the patten for that transducer design. So Fishman had to mount the piezo somewhere else on the bridge. Thus you get the BP-100. Which isn't placed optimally on

the bridge for the best sound. Freddy unfortunately was plagued by the "white powder" so he had his own demons to wrestle with.

My first pickup (actually this IS a picture of me)

View attachment 4036142

By the way: that $37.50 is worth $405 in 2020 dollars.