Double Bass Pickups Of Yesteryear

[Wasnex]

Once thing I notice in watching videos on youtube of small jazz combos performing for TV, was how physically distant the performers are from each other, like many meters apart. It makes using microphones a lot easier.

It also helps if the drummer has the aptitude and attitude necessary to play in a jazz combo. In a lot of the videos I see of jazz trios, the drummer is playing with what many would consider a very, very light touch.

I was looking at some of the KNKX public radio videos with the Christian McBride trio. It looks like they are consistently using an EV RE 20 on Christian's bass. The mic is actually not really that close to the bass, and the RE20 has a really loose polar patter, meaning it picks up a lot of bleed. On the plus side, I think the off-axis response of the RE20 is relatively uncolored, so bleed from the drums and cymbals would not be to problematic as long as the sound from the bass dominates. Note: some of the videos have a SDC taped to the RE20. I believe the way this was done would tend to make the RE20's pattern more omni, because the tape is blocking many of the mic's ports.

I like Christian's tone in these videos quite a bit. Although he makes it look easy, the amount of string excursion produced when he plucks suggests he is using a fair amount of strength.



Compare to this video.

I believe Christian is running an AMT SB25B on the F hole for his stage rig and the FOH has an AKG C414 off the bridge.

I would say the sound of the bass is pretty good considering Christian appears to be running a mic into an 810, and FOH is using a second mic. Also the drummer appears to be hitting a lot harder in this video, and it is a huge acoustic space complicated by the needs of live sound reinforcement.

I think the results would have been better with a pickup run to a smaller amp, and FOH taking a feed from the AMT, but that's just an educated guess.

 

[LHbassist]

Christian, is at the pinnacle of the jazz World, and the reasons why are in that video. An amazing player. What's truly incredible in that clip- is ROY HAYNES on drums, whom, I believe is 85 years old there.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Hi, Rick,
$37.50 is $405??? I think the FRAP was $175.00 in 1970. I remember is was about twice my monthly rent at the time. I have to go lie down now.

 

[james condino]

I used a FRAP in an old Martin guitar for a few years.

It worked great as long as I mixed it with a couple of other pickups and a mic!

 

[bassmanbrent]

Another expensive one I never tried and forget the name of had little pieces that fit under each string where it crossed the bridge and had to be fitted by the company that sold it.

That sounds like a Barbera transducer... I remember that they sounded good, but were quite fragile and pretty expensive for the time. And Mr. Barbera was not that easy to get ahold of... Still, those pickups definitely had a following.

 

[Bruce Calin]

That sounds like a Barbera transducer... I remember that they sounded good, but were quite fragile and pretty expensive for the time. And Mr. Barbera was not that easy to get ahold of... Still, those pickups definitely had a following.

That's it. It got a good write-up in Bass Player as I recall and that definitely caught my interest. The expense was an issue for me and as time went on the negatives became more than the positives. It's one I'm glad I didn't go for it since I was such a sucker for any new pickup back then.

 

[lurk]

I think Rufus Reid uses a Barbera still. For a long time he was my standard for amplified sound. Woods, volume pedal, Bose 802. Lots to carry. When I first heard him in Chicago he had one of those built-into-the-bridge Barcus Berrys and was running it into one of those 4 ft high squishy-cushion Kustom amps. I thought his sound was wonderful.

 

[Wasnex]

That's it. It got a good write-up in Bass Player as I recall and that definitely caught my interest. The expense was an issue for me and as time went on the negatives became more than the positives. It's one I'm glad I didn't go for it since I was such a sucker for any new pickup back then.

You may be interested in the Wilson K4 or K&K Double Big Twin.

Wilson

K&K

I believe there is a thread that compares these.

 

[Bruce Calin]

You may be interested in the Wilson K4 or K&K Double Big Twin.

Wilson
View attachment 4037492

K&K
View attachment 4037489

I believe there is a thread that compares these.

Thanks, Wasnex. I'm pretty happy with what I have now and have reached that stage where I'm trying to unload rather than accumulate. The recollection of what I went through with a mic-pickup combo makes me wonder what I was thinking. Simplicity and minimalism are my goals now. The quality of the new options is great, but I'm trying to make the best use of what I have. I've never considered myself much of a gearhead, although the sheer amount of it I've accumulated over the years is pretty amazing to me.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I appreciated the posting of those Christian M. videos. Aside from Christian's amazing playing, I'm going to recommend to the young drummers I play with or in bands I coach to watch those drummers and I will tell them "play like that".

 

[Wasnex]

I appreciated the posting of those Christian M. videos. Aside from Christian's amazing playing, I'm going to recommend to the young drummers I play with or in bands I coach to watch those drummers and I will tell them "play like that".

Seeing a drummer who can play quietly with skill and finesse can be very important.

I had a young drummer in my country band with an expensive performance degree from the University of Miami. He refused to believe that a drummer could play quietly with speed and finesse. One evening after we came back from a gig, I went into the hotel lounge and there was a drummer playing very fast and quiet. I ran upstairs and offered to buy my drummer a drink. The lounge had tiles floors and stucco walls, but we could still talk over the band without raising our voices. The drummer and I came to an understanding that night as he could no longer say "It can't be done." After that he put in the effort and learned to play with restraint and control.

 

[dylanjohnson]

Does anyone remember Rick Turner's pickup? It was similar to a Barbera but had piezo's slid into cuts in the bridge behind the strings. It looked less fragile than a Barbera, and for a second I remember people really liking it. He must have stopped making it.

 

[Wasnex]

Does anyone remember Rick Turner's pickup? It was similar to a Barbera but had piezo's slid into cuts in the bridge behind the strings. It looked less fragile than a Barbera, and for a second I remember people really liking it. He must have stopped making it.

Found this image

 

[dylanjohnson]

Found this image
View attachment 4038071

That's it! I played one once and I remember it sounding good but it was 20 years ago or so.

 

[rickwolff]

Thanks, Wasnex. I'm pretty happy with what I have now and have reached that stage where I'm trying to unload rather than accumulate. The recollection of what I went through with a mic-pickup combo makes me wonder what I was thinking. Simplicity and minimalism are my goals now. The quality of the new options is great, but I'm trying to make the best use of what I have. I've never considered myself much of a gearhead, although the sheer amount of it I've accumulated over the years is pretty amazing to me.

I've never really found mixing a mic and a pickup to be beneficial. Re: Simplicity, I now run my Xlson Chuck Israels mic directly into my Genzler Gollihur Model amp. Easy Peasy.

That said, I couldn't resist buying the new Headway EDB-2 HE which I hope to have soon. With that, I can downsize the amp a bit to my MAS 16 driven by my TC Electronic BAM200. I think that 'combo' (3M Dual Lock) weighs about 15 pounds.

 

[Ric Vice]

I've never really found mixing a mic and a pickup to be beneficial. Re: Simplicity, I now run my Xlson Chuck Israels mic directly into my Genzler Gollihur Model amp. Easy Peasy.

That said, I couldn't resist buying the new Headway EDB-2 HE which I hope to have soon. With that, I can downsize the amp a bit to my MAS 16 driven by my TC Electronic BAM200. I think that 'combo' (3M Dual Lock) weighs about 15 pounds.

Now you've got it Rick congratulations. I hope you really like the EDB-2 H.E. because I'm really interested in that little box. Having a separate speaker, head, and preamp, gives you so many options. It will be a bit of a challenge to set the EDB-2 H.E. so that

it doesn't overpower the front end of the BAM 200. My hope is that those two boxes will be compatible, but there is only one way to find out, so you get the guy who's the beta tester.

 

[Wasnex]

I've never really found mixing a mic and a pickup to be beneficial. Re: Simplicity, I now run my Xlson Chuck Israels mic directly into my Genzler Gollihur Model amp. Easy Peasy.

That said, I couldn't resist buying the new Headway EDB-2 HE which I hope to have soon. With that, I can downsize the amp a bit to my MAS 16 driven by my TC Electronic BAM200. I think that 'combo' (3M Dual Lock) weighs about 15 pounds.

Here's an example I found yesterday.

IMHO the Realist sounds pretty awful by itself; however, I think the composite signal of both the mic and pickup sound rather nice.



List price for the Mouse is $1249.99 so it's not exactly a cheap mic. Description: "Mouse excels at capturing the booming lows..."

Here are the polar charts and frequency response curve:
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[rickwolff]

I'm so happy with the sound I get from JUST using my Xlson Chuck Israels mic that I don't feel any need to mix anything else with it. Here is a sample I recorded with my Zoom Q8. It really is MBOL. It has the lows AND the highs. You'll maybe have to take my word for it since you haven't played my bass, but this is really what my bass sounds like. If I wanted to change this sound I'd need to go bass shopping (and THAT ain't happening).



PS As you may or may not know Xlson has lowered the price on the mic to 6000 Kr (which at todays exchange rate is less than $700).

The Chuck Israels signature microphone – Xlson audio

 

[Don Kasper]

I'm so happy with the sound I get from JUST using my Xlson Chuck Israels mic that I don't feel any need to mix anything else with it. Here is a sample I recorded with my Zoom Q8. It really is MBOL. It has the lows AND the highs. You'll maybe have to take my word for it since you haven't played my bass, but this is really what my bass sounds like. If I wanted to change this sound I'd need to go bass shopping (and THAT ain't happening).



PS As you may or may not know Xlson has lowered the price on the mic to 6000 Kr (which at todays exchange rate is less than $700).

The Chuck Israels signature microphone – Xlson audio

Big Fan of your Sound & Playing (in whatever order you prefer!), but... Would the addition of "drums" complicate your setup? both Live and Recording?
Just curious.
I seem to always play with drummers - they are usually very sensitive and tasteful, but there is definitely less, (or a different?), sonic real estate available when a drummist is present.
IMO, of course, as always.
Thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

I'm so happy with the sound I get from JUST using my Xlson Chuck Israels mic that I don't feel any need to mix anything else with it. Here is a sample I recorded with my Zoom Q8. It really is MBOL. It has the lows AND the highs. You'll maybe have to take my word for it since you haven't played my bass, but this is really what my bass sounds like. If I wanted to change this sound I'd need to go bass shopping (and THAT ain't happening).



PS As you may or may not know Xlson has lowered the price on the mic to 6000 Kr (which at todays exchange rate is less than $700).

The Chuck Israels signature microphone – Xlson audio

I totally understand where you are coming from. The Xlson is awesome for your needs, but I doubt I would find it useful to run one through an amp for the type of live work I did. I concede that my approach is probably part off the problem, but so was the loud drummer.

I am optimistic it would be useful to send the Xlson to the PA, but I think it would be a good idea to give the audio tech a signal from my pickup as well. Depending upon the situation, the audio tech could use 100% Xlson, blend in some of the pickup, or use 100% pickup.

The video I provided was meant to show that a composite signal can still sound rather nice...at least I thought it sounded nice YMMV. Also, blending pickup and mic can be used artistically to give a wider range of tones. In other words, if you want something other than MBOL.

I am not at all dogmatic about my sound being MBOL. In fact I often find recordings to sound better than real life...I would call the effect hyper-realism. So my goal is more like My Bass Only Better (MBOB)...of course you might think my attempt at MBOB sucks ! Subjective assessments are funny like that .