Piezo pickups - sourcing and installation?

[Jisch]

Does anyone have experience with piezo pickups? I will be using a piezo pickup in my next build, but I have no experience with them. I found one called an Artec on Ebay - it looks like a thin ribbon. I am planning on building a wood bridge that has a bottom piece that is glued to the body, then a string saddle that will be one piece that sits in a groove in the bridge. The piezo strip will be sandwiched in between the saddle and the bridge.

So two questions on that: is that placement correct? anyone know anywhere to source a piezo somewhere else?

Next: I've read that you need a buffer due to the high impedance of the piezo, so I've found a schematic and bought the pieces to build one ($8 worth of parts).

Is a buffer necessary?

Thanks for any help.
John

 

[Robert Canfield]

Buffer is necessary. What schematic are you looking at? Artec also sells an inexpensive acoustic preamp.

 

[Jisch]

I have a bit of a background in electronics, so I'm fine building a simple circuit like this. I found this one: www.scotthelmke.com/mint-box-buffer.html I want this body to be "clean" though with no knobs at all so I don't necessarily want a real preamp. I may regret that, but that's what I'm starting with.

Is my placement assumption correct?

 

[Robert Canfield]

I have a bass bridge with piezo saddles and the pre amp is an "end pin" amp, no controls. Are you using piezos only or combined with other PUPs?

 

[Jisch]

It will be piezo only. This is for a heavily chambered electric hollow body. It will look like an acoustic, sort of.

 

[Robert Canfield]

That circuit should work great, make sure your shielding is bullet proof. I feel like it's missing a by-pass cap, but it's been a long time. Please post a sound clip when you're done.

 

[Jisch]

Thanks for the comments.

 

[FBB Custom]

Piezo pickups can sound "clacky". You can get away without knobs if you just use a buffer (even an aftermarket one) but you may find you want to roll off some of the highs. Again, you can do that without a knob but you may want some additional electronics to make it sound good.

Highlander and K&K make good undersaddle piezo pickups for bass. I know Highlander sells a buffer that is designed to work with their pickup. I have used it and liked it. I can't remember all of what K&K sells off hand. Since this is the only pickup on what sounds like an instrument that will be the result of a lot of work, you want to put something in there that will give you a great sound. My recommendation on this pickup is not to go cheap and regret it.

 

[Jisch]

thanks for the reality check, you are right, why would I spend all this time making this bass only to have it sound crappy because of cheap piezos.

So I will get the K&K Pure Bass piezo - you would connect this inside the bass under the bridge - a very STUPID question - how do you attach that to wood?

 

[FBB Custom]

I'm not sure the Pure Sound is what you want. I have heard that they are great for acoustic instruments but will they be as great with an instrument that is merely chambered? You'd want to call K&K to make sure. They used to make an undersaddle pickup but maybe no more. I believe you attach the Pure Sound with a drop of glue. Again, I'd go straight to the source and ask them what they recommend (if they think it will work well in a semi-hollow instrument). I did an undersaddle K&K install years ago and the guy I spoke to there (no recollection of his name) was very helpful, built mine custom to fit the bridge I had already made.

I've also done Highlander undersaddle and I believe I spoke to Holly. It's been a few years since I did one of those, too, so who knows if she's still there but she was very helpful and worked with me to provide the lengths I needed. I used their endpin preamp/buffer one one install and it was a little wonky to fit in my cavity but you would have the freedom to design around it if you went that way. I did a different install with a Bartolini MPB-1 and that sounded good too. I have that bass back in my shop and I've got John East's MPM buffer for it and that's probably my favorite M/P buffer right now. I'll be doing a Graph-Tech/Hipshot bridge with one for myself soon and I am expecting great fretless sound. The Highlander is a coaxial design that sounds best if you can install in a slot with a round bottom.

There are other options, those are the two I have used.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I have used the Artecs and they sound pretty good. What kind of strings will you be using?

 

[moody]

I have (once) got a cheap piezo out of an alarm buzzer attached only to a jack. Wrapped it in masking tape and jammed it under the bridge of an old japanese semi-hollow bass.

It did a surprisingly good job for what it was. A buffer would have helped as would actual tone controls.

 

[Matthijs]

For a really good and simple buffering pre that's designed for bass check out tb-er fdeck's Invalid Link Removed.

I once did a piezo in a bridge (simular to your classic acoustic guitar like design) with a Fishman piezo strip. The result was ok, but needed eq to sound usable.

You can also try a Double Bass or cello piezo system. Check out the db side of tb or the Gollihur website for some ideas.

 

[Jisch]

I have DaBella Deep Talking tape wounds for strings. I'll call K&K today. I already placed the order, so I may be too late. Ugh.

I am looking for an acoustic, deep tone, I am not after the elusive "upright on an electric" tone as I don't believe it's possible. I actually think a little clack adds to the overall sound as long as it's not a brittle clack.

As usual describing sound with words is never easy :-D

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I have DaBella Deep Talking tape wounds for strings. I'll call K&K today. I already placed the order, so I may be too late. Ugh.

I am looking for an acoustic, deep tone, I am not after the elusive "upright on an electric" tone as I don't believe it's possible. I actually think a little clack adds to the overall sound as long as it's not a brittle clack.

As usual describing sound with words is never easy :-D

Mid way down the page is a raw (unprocessed) sound clip of the Artec 5 string wide under saddle variety being played on a fretless build with black nylon tape wounds.

 

[scottyd]

I've used one of these with great results. 5 String Bass Bridge with Built in Piezo Pickup Acoustic Sound Chrome New | eBay

I put it on a dual cut that I built.. I had David with Audere adjust the gain amount on one of the inputs of a Classic EQ. I ran a single humbucker on the other input. Here's a sound clip.. It's a tapping beast lots of clarity in the tap, I had it strung with round wounds in this recording so you can hear a-lot of finger noise and slight taps on the body while paying.. it was fun blending the two pups together.

 

[Jisch]

Man you guys are so much help. Thanks! I wish I found this forum years ago!

I am trying to keep the bass looking as organic as possible, so I don't want to use a metal bridge, I'll be making out of wood.

It looks like my K&K piezo already shipped (that was fast!) I will call them today to talk to them, maybe I'll just be sending it back.

 

[FBB Custom]

Maybe K&K will have a way to make it sound good. It sounds like you still have time to work on the design if K&K can advise you on how to get the most out of their pickups. I vaguely remember talking to Jack Read maybe 15 years ago about those K&K oyster pickups and I don't think he ever made a fully acoustic bass so... In any case, let us know what they say. I think I have an old pair of those things stored away. I'd love to find a use for them.

 

[Doner Designs]

I would recommend an Audere preamp which will work with piezo if you tell him that's what its for (I have twin Audere preamps in my Spectorcore - one for magnetic and one for piezo to separately adjust each). If you are not going to have a magnetic pickup I strongly recommend a preamp so you can tweak the tone.

 

[Jisch]

K&K sent this to me - I have sent back a description of my project, I will see what they say:
Our pickups, including the Pure Bass, respond and reproduce the vibrations of the instrument. The pickup must be located on the instrument in a location where there is sufficient vibration to result in an acoustic signal. Depending on the chamber size and location and the bridge type and location the result will be more or less successful. If you can send photos that show the construction of the guitar then we will be better equipped to help in determining the correct pickup and it's locations.