Pino and the RARHOF....

[MikeBass]

This is not about putting anyone on pedestal, this is not about what others bass players can do.

You say Pino plays his usual r'n'b lines in hiphop/nusoul.Among the 5 tracks he's played on D'Angelo's Voodoo, his most famous nusoul recording, that's true on "Send it on" and "Feel like makin love". Listen to the 3 others tracks and if you call it " usual regular r'n'b playing ", well we won't manage to really understand each other...

I'm not even quite sure Pino's my fav bass player (i've posted lots of jam on my YT (Fjord76) check it out if you got some time and you'll hear he ain't my main influence) I'm not saying he's the only talented bass player in the history of the instrument; i'm just saying he's probably the most versatile (read my post#72)

Sadly, talent is subjective. Some say the guy from Fall Out Boy is talented. See my point?

As for versitile, well, see my post #79.

Using terms like "most versitile" and the like are, really strong.
One of the most versitile?? Yeah, most def.
THE most versitile? How do you measure that? Compared to say Ricky Minor?
Neil Stubenhaus?
John Pena?
Oskar Cartaya?
Lee Sklar?
Will Lee?
Michael Rhoades?
Mike Brignardello?
Tommy Simms?
Derrick Allen?
Hell, me? On ONE gig I'll go from singing/playing a country song to playing/singing a R&B song to playing straight up Jazz, James Brown flavord funk, 4/4 8th note rock to subtle ballads like "Fragile" by Sting (there are 4 notes for bass to play that whole song- E-A-B & C).
(don't get all bound up- I'm not saying I'm on a level of Pino or the others I listed, just an example).

Versitlity isn't only measured by how many records you played on. It helps, but that's not the only marker.
There are countless guys out there that trudge away every single day that can lay it out just as good as our "heros" who are in the spot light.
We read it ALL the time, a lot of the industry isn't just about WHAT you know, it's WHO you know.
You could have all the groove & chops in the world, but if you don't know the right people, or run in the right circles, you'll just be a spectator. And be disgruntled when someone else gets the call and you don't.

 

[MikeBass]

Is this cat gettin' in?*

If not, Pino, get in line. I don't care what you played on ; }






* I really don't think awards are about gettin' it right anyway, but just for the sake of killin' time

Pretty interesting bass he has though.......V-Bass system, drop tuner system that looks like it came off a Kubicki......who is he?

Wait, is that Paul Jackson????

 

[greenboy]

Paul Jackson. First I was aware was in Azteca and Headhunters circa 72 or 73. But he was doin' lots of dates before that evidently, too, and of course a lot of stuff since.

Now I'm wondering what happened to Buster Williams too...

 

[Fretless5verfan]

There are countless guys out there that trudge away every single day that can lay it out just as good as our "heros" who are in the spot light.
We read it ALL the time, a lot of the industry isn't just about WHAT you know, it's WHO you know.
You could have all the groove & chops in the world, but if you don't know the right people, or run in the right circles, you'll just be a spectator. And be disgruntled when someone else gets the call and you don't.

I think this is true about more than just the music industry!


I still can't get over Will Lee being on Letterman! All these years I've missed out :scowl:

 

[greenboy]

My first recollection of Will Lee was on Dreams: Imagine My Surprise back in 71. Lots of heavy hitters there, if you check out a discography.

Link Removed

 

[Randy Newton]

Sadly, talent is subjective. Some say the guy from Fall Out Boy is talented. See my point?

As for versitile, well, see my post #79.

Using terms like "most versitile" and the like are, really strong.
One of the most versitile?? Yeah, most def.
THE most versitile? How do you measure that? Compared to say Ricky Minor?
Neil Stubenhaus?
John Pena?
Oskar Cartaya?
Lee Sklar?
Will Lee?
Michael Rhoades?
Mike Brignardello?
Tommy Simms?
Derrick Allen?
Hell, me? On ONE gig I'll go from singing/playing a country song to playing/singing a R&B song to playing straight up Jazz, James Brown flavord funk, 4/4 8th note rock to subtle ballads like "Fragile" by Sting (there are 4 notes for bass to play that whole song- E-A-B & C).
(don't get all bound up- I'm not saying I'm on a level of Pino or the others I listed, just an example).

Versitlity isn't only measured by how many records you played on. It helps, but that's not the only marker.
There are countless guys out there that trudge away every single day that can lay it out just as good as our "heros" who are in the spot light.
We read it ALL the time, a lot of the industry isn't just about WHAT you know, it's WHO you know.
You could have all the groove & chops in the world, but if you don't know the right people, or run in the right circles, you'll just be a spectator. And be disgruntled when someone else gets the call and you don't.

I agree with you on pretty much all (i know most of these bass players) I've never said that versality was measured by how many records you played on; i was speaking of how many musical genres. you don't see dozens and dozens players switching with such musicality from "regular pop" music to specialised genres like fusion, afro beat, reggae or electronica (hiphop/house/broken beat...)
He's not just "doing the job" (pretty much anybody could do that) but like you said, this "talent" is all subjective in the end.
(To me, Jazz (and Fusion) are included in "regular pop" music,the gig you described is pretty much "regular contemporary pop" music)

 

[MikeBass]

I agree with you on pretty much all (i know most of these bass players) I've never said that versality was measured by how many records you played on; i was speaking of how many musical genres. you don't see dozens and dozens players switching with such musicality from "regular pop" music to specialised genres like fusion, afro beat, reggae or electronica (hiphop/house/broken beat...)
He's not just "doing the job" (pretty much anybody could do that) but this "talent" is all subjective in the end.(To me, Jazz (and Fusion) are included in "regular pop" music,the gig you described is pretty much "regular contemporary pop" music)

OK, now really, you're kinda backtracking.
Now you're saying talent is subjective, agreed.
You say you don't see dozens of players switching, but I named 9 that, I'd be will to bet have done a LOT of just that. And those were just shot off the top of my head.
Pino is no island in what he can do, or what he has done.

And if Jazz AND fusion are part of a regular "pop" gig.....hmm.....dunno man, I wouldn't really put ANY fusion in a regular pop gig and then lay claim that pretty much "anybody" could do it.
And if you do hold to your comments, then wouldn't that make that players versitile?
Being able to pull off a multitude of styles at pretty much a moments notice on a gig?

Let's assume Will Lee knows a little about recording sessions. Think he may have done a few more than some of us.
He has stated that maybe 20% of sessions have no charts. The rest have pretty much a path laid out for you to follow.
So, again, just for giggles, I'll follow his statements, how versitile would someone have to be to play those parts laid out before them?
Since roughly 20% of what you do is left to your devices to come up with and the rest is there for you to follow (and put you stamp on in a way).
So, back to the logic that WL laid out, ONE of the tracks that Pino played on was left totally up to him to create a line for.
Again, using that figure as a rough estimate.

Now, I'll give that Pino has a solid rep as someone who may need pretty much no direction on how to make a track work. So he may indeed walk in and not be handed anything- and left to just hammer it out on the spot (which, I would guess he might do).

My point is, I'm a BIG Pino fan. I'm a big fan of a lot of players. Not everything they do is gold. And not everything they play on is good.
I have friends who have their heads so far up Marcus Miller's a$$ they can chew his food for him. Like the guy couldn't ever play something bad.
If you have a heart beat, you play something bad every now and then.
Same with Pino.

 

[Randy Newton]

OK, now really, you're kinda backtracking.
Now you're saying talent is subjective, agreed.
You say you don't see dozens of players switching, but I named 9 that, I'd be will to bet have done a LOT of just that. And those were just shot off the top of my head.
Pino is no island in what he can do, or what he has done.

And if Jazz AND fusion are part of a regular "pop" gig.....hmm.....dunno man, I wouldn't really put ANY fusion in a regular pop gig and then lay claim that pretty much "anybody" could do it.
And if you do hold to your comments, then wouldn't that make that players versitile?
Being able to pull off a multitude of styles at pretty much a moments notice on a gig?

Let's assume Will Lee knows a little about recording sessions. Think he may have done a few more than some of us.
He has stated that maybe 20% of sessions have no charts. The rest have pretty much a path laid out for you to follow.
So, again, just for giggles, I'll follow his statements, how versitile would someone have to be to play those parts laid out before them?
Since roughly 20% of what you do is left to your devices to come up with and the rest is there for you to follow (and put you stamp on in a way).
So, back to the logic that WL laid out, ONE of the tracks that Pino played on was left totally up to him to create a line for.
Again, using that figure as a rough estimate.

i took the gig exemple to kinda illustrate what a regular session musician would ultimately have to be able to play (not at the same time, not on the same gig) to be considered as versitile.(to be considered as "one of the most versitile" is a whole other story actually)
I know WL's work pretty well and have read many of his awesome studio memories but complete versitility implies that you'll have to play without charts as well (Pino doesn't read music anyway) especially in the genres that i mentioned in my previous post(s); sometimes you'll have a MIDI sequenced bassline to play with or to replace but most of the time, you'll have to come up with sthg.
Please consider that and read Pino's nusoul/hiphop discography that i posted on TB, most of this recordings were made by guys playin together in a room, someone comes up with an idea for a tune, they play it ...(we all pretty much know that process) this is not the session world Will's talkin about.

 

[MikeBass]

i took the gig exemple to kinda illustrate what a regular session musician would ultimately have to be able to play (not at the same time, not on the same gig) to be considered as versitile.(to be considered as "one of the most versitile" is a whole other story actually)
I know WL's work pretty well and have read many of his awesome studio memories but complete versitility implies that you'll have to play without charts as well (Pino doesn't read music anyway) especially in the genres that i mentioned in my previous post(s); sometimes you'll have a MIDI sequenced bassline to play with or to replace but most of the time, you'll have to come up with sthg.
Please consider that and read Pino's nusoul/hiphop discography that i posted on TB, most of this recordings were made by guys playin together in a room, someone comes up with an idea for a tune, they play it ...(we all pretty much know that process) this is not the session world Will's talkin about.

There isn't anything you mentioned that I don't already know.

B+I would ask you though, that if your last statement is true, about them playing in a room together and someone comes up with an idea and they all run with it, where is the writing credits he deserves?
I SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY doubt that Pino will let stuff just fall away like the old Motown days.

And also, this is where you might get a little bent, if you really break it down to simple aspects, Pino has been playing nothing but R&B the whole time.
A lot of the artists you pointed out in your thread about him are sub-genere's of R&B/Soul.
Hell, Paul Young was really a "Blue-eyed Soul" singer.
Pino, with exception of maybe Go West, and I guess you could drop the Who and a few others, really didn't play much differently, stylisticly speaking.
Sure, "Everywhere I Lay My Hat" is good bit different from the original. But really, if you break it down, he's a Jamerson influenced bassest.
And most, if not all of these sub-genere's like neo-soul, nu-soul or what ever you want to call it, are being derived from R&B where he gets his influences from.

I've been a huge fan of his from the 80's. Have a LOT by him. A lot of what you listed. IMO, most of the list you pointed out is VERY VERY simular.

So when I really really take a hard look at his body of work, it's really not as diverse as you think.
Sure, plow things down into little sub-genere's could really give a massive perception that it's like he's going from hard bop to country. But really, he's not.

Now sure, debate with me the differences between Jill Scott and Common.
But really, is there THAT much difference in what he does?
No.
They call him because he does what HE does. And what HE brings.

I don't see him on a Taylor Swift record anytime soon. See my point?

Hell, I just thought of something..... Uriah Duffy....from Common to WHITESNAKE!!!!!
Add him to the list!

 

[Randy Newton]

There isn't anything you mentioned that I don't already know.

B+I would ask you though, that if your last statement is true, about them playing in a room together and someone comes up with an idea and they all run with it, where is the writing credits he deserves?
I SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY doubt that Pino will let stuff just fall away like the old Motown days.

And also, this is where you might get a little bent, if you really break it down to simple aspects, Pino has been playing nothing but R&B the whole time.
A lot of the artists you pointed out in your thread about him are sub-genere's of R&B/Soul.
Hell, Paul Young was really a "Blue-eyed Soul" singer.
Pino, with exception of maybe Go West, and I guess you could drop the Who and a few others, really didn't play much differently, stylisticly speaking.
Sure, "Everywhere I Lay My Hat" is good bit different from the original. But really, if you break it down, he's a Jamerson influenced bassest.
And most, if not all of these sub-genere's like neo-soul, nu-soul or what ever you want to call it, are being derived from R&B where he gets his influences from.

I've been a huge fan of his from the 80's. Have a LOT by him. A lot of what you listed. IMO, most of the list you pointed out is VERY VERY simular.

So when I really really take a hard look at his body of work, it's really not as diverse as you think.
Sure, plow things down into little sub-genere's could really give a massive perception that it's like he's going from hard bop to country. But really, he's not.

Now sure, debate with me the differences between Jill Scott and Common.
But really, is there THAT much difference in what he does?
No.
They call him because he does what HE does. And what HE brings.

I don't see him on a Taylor Swift record anytime soon. See my point?

Hell, I just thought of something..... Uriah Duffy....from Common to WHITESNAKE!!!!!
Add him to the list!

you don't get to co-sign a song each time you come up with your bass part for sure, i was just saying that i read that they (?uestlove, Poyser and him most of the time) tried ideas on the spot (2004 BassPlayerMag itw) btw, he's been co-signing songs with Badu, Common, Omar, J.Wright, N.Costa, R.Hargrove...

you say "But really, is there THAT much difference in what he does? No." that's precisely where subjectivity stands:No for you,Yes for me...To each his own

 

[MikeBass]

you don't get to co-sign a song each you come up with your bass part for sure, i was just saying that i read that they (?uestlove, Poyser and him most of the time) tried ideas on the spot (2004 BassPlayerMag itw) btw, he' been co signing with Badu, Common, Omar, J.Wright, R.Hargrove...

Yes you do, and yes you can.
If I walk in and there is zero idea for a groove and I have to stand in a room and create something, then yeah, I'm getting a writing credit.
If the structure is there and a synth line is in place, but they want a "real" line with my little stamp on it. Then maybe not.

you say "But really, is there THAT much difference in what he does? No." that's precisely where subjectivity stands:No for you,Yes for me...To each his own

Well, I guess that's where the debate comes in then.
Is there a massive difference.
No there isn't.
You think there is, and naturally, you should. There's no way you would submit to something that may go against what you think. Even if it is pretty obvious.
It's R&B.
Not R&B to Country.
Or R&B to bluegrass..

Now, has he as a player crossed generes? Yes.
From R&B to the Who...yeah, pretty massive.

But again, versitility in a small sub-sections of one style does not make someone "one of the most versitile". And using just one genere (and it's sub sections) to try and reinforce a point as such. Well, you'd be better off trying to milk a bull.
In Pino's case, he has stayed the course of who HE is. And subsequently it's garnered him a lot of praise- and rightfully so, he's a badass.
But in the end, as you dropped Jazz (and fusion) into a pop gig, and then stand to say that there are big differences in sub-genere's of R&B......well.....

 

[Randy Newton]

Yes you do, and yes you can.
If I walk in and there is zero idea for a groove and I have to stand in a room and create something, then yeah, I'm getting a writing credit.
If the structure is there and a synth line is in place, but they want a "real" line with my little stamp on it. Then maybe not.




Well, I guess that's where the debate comes in then.
Is there a massive difference.
No there isn't.
You think there is, and naturally, you should. There's no way you would submit to something that may go against what you think. Even if it is pretty obvious.
It's R&B.
Not R&B to Country.
Or R&B to bluegrass..

Now, has he as a player crossed generes? Yes.
From R&B to the Who...yeah, pretty massive.

But again, versitility in a small sub-sections of one style does not make someone "one of the most versitile". And using just one genere (and it's sub sections) to try and reinforce a point as such. Well, you'd be better off trying to milk a bull.
In Pino's case, he has stayed the course of who HE is. And subsequently it's garnered him a lot of praise- and rightfully so, he's a badass.
But in the end, as you dropped Jazz (and fusion) into a pop gig, and then stand to say that there are big differences in sub-genere's of R&B......well.....

sorry, i totally forgot to mention your sub-sections point;you're absolutely right on that and i'm not saying his regular Top4O "r'n'b" playing is completely different from his hophop/nusoul playing but on the other hand,you can't say either it's exactly the same lines (there are several tracks where he kinda used an other way of grooving inspired by the floppy feel given by sample-based music (listen to Playa,Playa off Voodoo, Get to Heaven off Common's Like Water For Chocolate or Heaven off Common's Electric Circus to start)

From r'n'b to the Who...with some bigtime jazz fusion gigs on the way (John Mc Laughlin, Vinnie Colaiuta, Roy Hargrove, David Sanborn, Jan Garbarek, Herbie Hancock...)

 

[willgroove2]

sorry, i totally forgot to mention your sub-sections point;you're absolutely right on that and i'm not saying his regular Top4O "r'n'b" playing is completely different from his hophop/nusoul playing but on the other hand,you can't say either it's exactly the same lines (there are several tracks where he kinda used an other way of grooving (inspired by the floppy feel given by sample-based music: listen to Playa,Playa off Voodoo, Get to Heaven off Common's Like Water For Chocolate or Heaven off Common's Electric Circus to start)

From r'n'b to the Who...with some bigtime jazz fusion gigs on the way (John Mc Laughlin, Vinnie Colaiuta, Roy Hargrove, David Sanborn, Jan Garbarek, Herbie Hancock...)

You do know that a lot of what Pino plays in the hip hop/Nu soul is chopped up in the mixing process right? He play's similar stuff and they make it into what they (production team) want and that's a fact

 

[Randy Newton]

You do know that a lot of what Pino plays in the hip hop/Nu soul is chopped up in the mixing process right? He play's similar stuff and they make it into what they (production team) want and that's a fact

Look up for Russell Elevado's itw: he was recording engineer for most of those records and according to him, almost all was analogic without editing before going to master process.

 

[MikeBass]

sorry, i totally forgot to mention your sub-sections point;you're absolutely right on that and i'm not saying his regular Top4O "r'n'b" playing is completely different from his hophop/nusoul playing but on the other hand,you can't say either it's exactly the same lines (there are several tracks where he kinda used an other way of grooving (inspired by the floppy feel given by sample-based music: listen to Playa,Playa off Voodoo, Get to Heaven off Common's Like Water For Chocolate or Heaven off Common's Electric Circus to start)

From r'n'b to the Who...with some bigtime jazz fusion gigs on the way (John Mc Laughlin, Vinnie Colaiuta, Roy Hargrove, David Sanborn, Jan Garbarek, Herbie Hancock...)

Randy, I agree that the subtleties between the genere's are what make or break it.
That's the magical "X Factor" that he has and what makes things work.

My point was/is, that in a broader view, he is who HE is, and that's what makes him special.
It's how his flavor makes a track live. Not because of his versitility. Yes, it's a big part, but it's about PINO.