Players that won't learn a note

[turf3]

The Roland VG-8/VG-88 system she was using actually works with any guitar having a divided pickup system, which can be built in or an add-on. I had a VG-8 for a while, it was way fun once you got around the very steep learning/programming curve. You could program pedal steel-like string bends on the string(s) of your choice, modulated by a floor pedal...good times!

At the moment I'm working on coming to grips with GDGBD tuning, aka open G:

View attachment 5128189

The most unfamiliar aspect for me is that using open strings is often much more satisfying and useful than it is for me on bass. It's also much easier to play on with a slide than my basses are.

That's a really odd instrument. We've all seen the "banjitar" a 6 string guitar but made in banjo form, but I think that's the first time I've seen a 5 string banjo in guitar form. And a resonator on it, to boot.

 

[Passinwind]

That's a really odd instrument. We've all seen the "banjitar" a 6 string guitar but made in banjo form, but I think that's the first time I've seen a 5 string banjo in guitar form. And a resonator on it, to boot.

It's a "dojo", a few different companies do their own take on that as well. They're much mellower sounding than a banjo, so potentially easier on housemates while you're learning the ropes. Also has sonic elements of a dobro, archtop jazz box, and twelve string guitar, and takes to amplification really well thanks to a piezo pickup on the resonator and the humbucker at the neck position. It seemed worth a flyer to fill in some missing slots at a weekly Friday night Americana jam I frequent, especially since we often have 3 or 4 bassists, no banjo, and only a couple of confident soloists. And I won't need to haul an amp over there every week, as I've been doing for the last seven years or so.

 

[LBS-bass]

The Roland VG-8/VG-88 system she was using actually works with any guitar having a divided pickup system, which can be built in or an add-on. I had a VG-8 for a while, it was way fun once you got around the very steep learning/programming curve. You could program pedal steel-like string bends on the string(s) of your choice, modulated by a floor pedal...good times!

At the moment I'm working on coming to grips with GDGBD tuning, aka open G:

View attachment 5128189

The most unfamiliar aspect for me is that using open strings is often much more satisfying and useful than it is for me on bass. It's also much easier to play on with a slide than my basses are.

GoldTone has a short scale fretless bass that I've been itching to buy...

 

[Passinwind]

GoldTone has a short scale fretless bass that I've been itching to buy...

Yeah, they look pretty nice and I've been learning that it's a more happening brand than I was aware of. Endorsers include Bela Fleck, Vic Wooten, and the current big dog in Bluegrass/Americana, Billy Strings. This dojo was for sale locally and as soon as I played it I realized it was weird in a pretty attractive way for my current playing situation.

 

[Pilgrim]

You need to get out more then

Hey, I'm 73. Go 'way and let me work on my lawn and play the same old blues riff 1000 times.....

 

[Oldscoolfool]

I strongly suspect that there was more to the story than what you're relating here. Who was the person and when did this happen?

Happened about a year ago. If you can find the thread read it. All the guy did was defend his point of view to those who wanted to argue, but because he wanew and the folks arguing were sexed in, the mods banned him. No name calling, no cursing.
You may be able to find the thread I forgot exactly what is was called, something like " how to learn the notes on the fretboard" or "memorize" maybe.
I might try and find it and post it here

 

[Oldscoolfool]

Yes for instance if "Flea went to UC to learn music theory" it was to learn an advanced aspect of it and hang out in a college setting which he probly enjoyed. He grew up around theory, he was a competant HS trumpet player so he reads trebel cleff and has done hours of arpegios in every key (I know he studdied the Arban book, a dictionary of excercises) , knows fanfairs and orchestral parts by heart, soul and bigband ryhthm parts, and probably tries jazz improv. Importantly he knows when to forget it and make a groove and transition, but it's all Informed.

I once worked with a guitarist singer who had learned the whole John Fayhe book picking method, and she was good, her strat sounded harp-like, but as far as rhythm consistancy? Didn't exist, every time was different (except for the picking patterns, but they would be shorter or longer randomly, something she called "feel" which is actually e.s.p.) It was fun for a season, but too stressful to wonder a 'what will happen? feeling all the time. I don't mind outsider musicians as long as something about them is good.
(I'm calling them outsider musicians similar to Outsider Artists, these people who invent a techniqe never went to a school or sought the usual artist contacts. Maybe live in the woods.

I've played in bands with people who couldn't tell you what a D7 chord was, and we played medium sized clubs in new Orleans such as Tipitinas, the Howling Wolf, with audiences of 100 to 200 head counts. The same guitar player for that band i was in, his former band opened for Fishbone, back when they were a recognizable name, and headlined the House of Blues in NOLA.

Tell you the truth, I've been playing for 30 years and I can't play single cover song start to finish. Cuz every time I play the bass I write music or I play music I've already written never had any need. And most people say I'm a damned good bass player, I've never plated a show where people didn't come up to me after it and tell me how great I sounded. I'm not bragging, im just telling the truth. I've written at least
or 30 or 40 songs for a full band in my lifetime. I know what the notes are on the fretboard, and I know lots of chords/arps, but I never needed to know the note names, I had a couple guitar players with a good ear. So I can Def see how it's possible to get by.

Yes for instance if "Flea went to UC to learn music theory" it was to learn an advanced aspect of it and hang out in a college setting which he probly enjoyed. He grew up around theory, he was a competant HS trumpet player so he reads trebel cleff and has done hours of arpegios in every key (I know he studdied the Arban book, a dictionary of excercises) , knows fanfairs and orchestral parts by heart, soul and bigband ryhthm parts, and probably tries jazz improv. Importantly he knows when to forget it and make a groove and transition, but it's all Informed.

I once worked with a guitarist singer who had learned the whole John Fayhe book picking method, and she was good, her strat sounded harp-like, but as far as rhythm consistancy? Didn't exist, every time was different (except for the picking patterns, but they would be shorter or longer randomly, something she called "feel" which is actually e.s.p.) It was fun for a season, but too stressful to wonder a 'what will happen? feeling all the time. I don't mind outsider musicians as long as something about them is good.
(I'm calling them outsider musicians similar to Outsider Artists, these people who invent a techniqe never went to a school or sought the usual artist contacts. Maybe live in the woods.

Yes for instance if "Flea went to UC to learn music theory" it was to learn an advanced aspect of it and hang out in a college setting which he probly enjoyed. He grew up around theory, he was a competant HS trumpet player so he reads trebel cleff and has done hours of arpegios in every key (I know he studdied the Arban book, a dictionary of excercises) , knows fanfairs and orchestral parts by heart, soul and bigband ryhthm parts, and probably tries jazz improv. Importantly he knows when to forget it and make a groove and transition, but it's all Informed.

I once worked with a guitarist singer who had learned the whole John Fayhe book picking method, and she was good, her strat sounded harp-like, but as far as rhythm consistancy? Didn't exist, every time was different (except for the picking patterns, but they would be shorter or longer randomly, something she called "feel" which is actually e.s.p.) It was fun for a season, but too stressful to wonder a 'what will happen? feeling all the time. I don't mind outsider musicians as long as something about them is good.
(I'm calling them outsider musicians similar to Outsider Artists, these people who invent a techniqe never went to a school or sought the usual artist contacts. Maybe live in the woods.

You're right, but it goes both ways too though. Theory can explain music, but can also be used to generate music as well. It also allows collaborators to bat around ideas when creating music using a common lexicon that both should understand.

There's no downside to knowing theory.

Downside to theory :
You're playing becomes formulaic, almost a paint by numbers approach because you've made technical and abstract art form.

 

[Oldscoolfool]

Yes for instance if "Flea went to UC to learn music theory" it was to learn an advanced aspect of it and hang out in a college setting which he probly enjoyed. He grew up around theory, he was a competant HS trumpet player so he reads trebel cleff and has done hours of arpegios in every key (I know he studdied the Arban book, a dictionary of excercises) , knows fanfairs and orchestral parts by heart, soul and bigband ryhthm parts, and probably tries jazz improv. Importantly he knows when to forget it and make a groove and transition, but it's all Informed.

I once worked with a guitarist singer who had learned the whole John Fayhe book picking method, and she was good, her strat sounded harp-like, but as far as rhythm consistancy? Didn't exist, every time was different (except for the picking patterns, but they would be shorter or longer randomly, something she called "feel" which is actually e.s.p.) It was fun for a season, but too stressful to wonder a 'what will happen? feeling all the time. I don't mind outsider musicians as long as something about them is good.
(I'm calling them outsider musicians similar to Outsider Artists, these people who invent a techniqe never went to a school or sought the usual artist contacts. Maybe live in the woods.

From wikipedia:
After the Chili Peppers announced a long hiatus due to exhaustion, Flea enrolled in music classes at the University of Southern California, where he studied music theory, composition and jazz trumpet. Flea attributed his interest to a newfound desire to widen his appreciation and understanding of music: "It's so much fun to learn this stuff because I never knew anything. I played trumpet in the school bands. I learned things I liked to play on my trumpet but I didn't learn why this note goes with this note and why it produces that sound. Or how to create tension in the composition [...] Knowing the structure is really fun."

 

[Oldscoolfool]

The two situations, as you have described them, are different. OP is not in any way justifying people who are ignorant of the names of the notes on the fingerboard. He is illustrating two examples where working with people like that has proven difficult. So pretty much the opposite of the poster you mentioned who got banned.

Its similar enough. What this thread has turned into is the exact conversation he was trying to have. The opposite... Yeah, OK. I'm saying the guys post was similar to the OP o this thread, not that the OP on the other thread was like the OP on this thread.

 

[Oldscoolfool]

I have not. I did room with a Sax major when I went to college though and his improv classes seemed to also not mesh well with the absolute maelstrom that comes from bringing strangers of different skillsets in from Craigslist. On re-reading what I posted, I don't mean to say that the classically trained as a group can't jam. The ones I met in school couldn't outside of improvisational exercises yet though. Outside of school they make me feel like a child with his grandma's guitar in his hands again.

In my flautist friends defense, he came up with a simple 4 note melody over my groove, but explained that since we didn't have anything defined that he didn't know where he could/wanted to go. I am looking up Wynton Marsalis though, at the moment

You've never heard of Wynton Marsalis? Well I guess it's cuz im originally from New Orleans, he is a household name there. If you play jazz you certainly should look into music in the birthplace of Jazz (most think so, some say it was Chicago but that's BS cuz before there was jazz there was ragtime, which is where the Jazz swing comes from).

Have you ever heard Second Line jazz, like Rebirth, Dirty Dozen, Sound Rebels?
Its like marching band jazz with a hip hop style downbeat, usually it's roughly 5 to 10 musicians. I assume you haven't heard it cuz you haven't heard of Wynton Marsalis. You are missing out on a lot of great jazz music.

 

[Oldscoolfool]

It's a "dojo", a few different companies do their own take on that as well. They're much mellower sounding than a banjo, so potentially easier on housemates while you're learning the ropes. Also has sonic elements of a dobro, archtop jazz box, and twelve string guitar, and takes to amplification really well thanks to a piezo pickup on the resonator and the humbucker at the neck position. It seemed worth a flyer to fill in some missing slots at a weekly Friday night Americana jam I frequent, especially since we often have 3 or 4 bassists, no banjo, and only a couple of confident soloists. And I won't need to haul an amp over there every week, as I've been doing for the last seven years or so.

Its actually called a Dobro. Zzzounds online music store sells a resonator bass for about $1200. It makes the attack come out more, which is good to do on an acoustic instrument.

 

[Passinwind]

Its actually called a Dobro. .

Nope: Dojo-DLX: Deluxe Resonator Banjo with Pickup and Bag

And they do also make a resonator bass, like so: Resonator Bass | Gold Tone

 

[pepj]

Downside to theory :
You're playing becomes formulaic, almost a paint by numbers approach because you've made technical and abstract art form.

That would be a limitation of that player than the knowledge they'd gained, imv.

 

[SteveCS]

...
Downside to theory :
You're playing becomes formulaic, almost a paint by numbers approach because you've made technical and abstract art form.

We hear this a lot. As noted by @pepj, such an outcome might be more a reflection of the individual and a failure to understand than a flaw in the knowledge imparted. I guess failure to understand might equally be a failure of the teaching process - which is a serious and real possibility - but is not a failure of theory in an of itself, nor is it a guaranteed deterministic outcome.

 

[HolmeBass]

Its similar enough. What this thread has turned into is the exact conversation he was trying to have. The opposite... Yeah, OK. I'm saying the guys post was similar to the OP o this thread, not that the OP on the other thread was like the OP on this thread.

Maybe other people’s posts were similar, but OP’s post was the opposite of “I don’t want to learn any theory because it will ruin my creativity”. Same topic, opposite stance.

 

[Koshchei]

Downside to theory :
You're playing becomes formulaic, almost a paint by numbers approach because you've made technical and abstract art form.

LOL no, not in the least.

I can appreciate the fear of demystifying music by learning about it, but all theory does is sets your feet on a path that extends to infinity:

The more you know about it, the more technical and abstract you can get, realizing that music extends FAR beyond where you currently are. The more you know about it, the more vocabulary you have to explore and push the horizons.

Not knowing anything, and yet talking as if you have some innate insight into music as an "abstract and technical art form" is disingenuous. You're not wrong, but you have no idea.

 

[themickster]

You're playing becomes formulaic, almost a paint by numbers approach because you've made technical and abstract art form.

My boy's formula is 'play notes as fast as you can'. It sometimes fits the song, if the song's the right speed by luck.

 

[Jason Sypher]

That would be a limitation of that player than the knowledge they'd gained, imv.

I tend to agree. I remember starting out and not wanting to be technical but more “soulful”. I did get a teacher and I did learn technique and theory. But I can say that I’ve spent so much time chasing technique to express the soul of the music I play that it would have been much easier if I had the technique first along with more harmonic theory than the other way around. I’ve always known basic theory, certainly all the notes, scales, chords etc, but I wish I had started out with a better understanding. That is the problem with being self-taught, big gaps develop.

 

[Febs]

Happened about a year ago. If you can find the thread read it. All the guy did was defend his point of view to those who wanted to argue, but because he wanew and the folks arguing were sexed in, the mods banned him. No name calling, no cursing.
You may be able to find the thread I forgot exactly what is was called, something like " how to learn the notes on the fretboard" or "memorize" maybe.
I might try and find it and post it here

There have been four threads with the words "learn," "notes" and "fretboard" in the title and none of them is even remotely like what you describe.

If we expand the search to "learn" and "fretboard," there are 18 threads, but still only two in the past two years and neither of those is what you describe.

There have been five threads with the words "memorize" and "fretboard" in the title, and again, none of them is even remotely like what you describe. Only one of those was started within the past two years (most were much older) and that one was started by a member with 15 years experience here who did not end up banned.

So I remain skeptical.

 

[gln1955]

Downside to theory :
You're playing becomes formulaic, almost a paint by numbers approach because you've made technical and abstract art form.

Damn right. If Mozart had not learned theory, he would have really pushed the boundaries and made a name for himself.