Double Bass Playing "ahead of the beat"

[unbrokenchain]

I see your point @martinc though I reckon maybe it's a matter of different players interpreting the "beat" being in subtly different places. What feels like the back is sometimes square if someone else is rushing, or vice versa. But it's all a fluid thing and highly tempo-dependent imo, metronomes/click tracks aside.

 

[Wasnex]

unbroken: This makes no sense. Why not play ON the beat and do your band (and the mandolin player) a favour? Isn't that the bass player's job?

I see your point @martinc though I reckon maybe it's a matter of different players interpreting the "beat" being in subtly different places. What feels like the back is sometimes square if someone else is rushing, or vice versa. But it's all a fluid thing and highly tempo-dependent imo, metronomes/click tracks aside.

The problem is it can be a somewhat ironic process. Ideally two players create a bit of rhythmic tension by playing at two different places in the beat. This rhythmic tension is what we call the pocket. The problem is we have to agree on the shape and size of the pocket, and perceptions and distance between players can get in the way.

Here's the ironic part. If the first player perceives the second player is pushing too far ahead, the natural tendency is to pull back to keep time from rushing. But what if the second player thinks the first player is pulling back too much and dragging. This can cause the second player to push even harder. In this circumstance, it might be better if the first player played more on top of the beat and relaxed the pocket a little bit, so there is less rhythmic tension.

It's also possible that the first player just needs to adjust his/her amp, or aim the amp so the second player can hear where the ictus actually falls. In my experience, brightening my sound tends to give people the perception that I am playing more on top of the beat, and darkening the sound tends to give people the perception I am playing more laid back. In other words how clearly other players can hear my attack determines where they think I am laying down the beat. Unfortunately, it's not as obvious as it sounds.

I have also played with drummers who keyed off of the bloom of my notes rather than the attack. I normally prefer to use a very tight, clear, and articulate tone, and one drummer was adamant that I had to use a big pillowy low end. I wound up using a dual mono rig so I could put 410 on the floor right next to his kit, and then I dialed in a nice clear sound at a low volume through an elevated 210 that was place behind me. He was a fabulously talented young drummer, but also a real prima donna.

 

[longfinger]

y.

Here's the ironic part. If the first player perceives the second player is pushing too far ahead, the natural tendency is to pull back to keep time from rushing. But what if the second player thinks the first player is pulling back too much and dragging. This can cause the second player to push even harder.

So true!

 

[AGCurry]

One of my favorite things about playing bass for bluegrass (or most string/drummerless bands) is the ability to manipulate the tempo to my liking But every single mandolin player I know rushes the tempos, so I feel my job is generally to hang on the back of the beat so that the whole tune doesn't start rolling down a hill...

I'm somewhat with @martinc here. Could it be that the mandolinist seems to be ahead of the tempo because you are behind it? I've perceived what you're perceiving playing very fast pieces... when I've had a chance to listen to recordings of it, I hear the tension, and it would have sounded better if I'd just gone with the flow. See if you can find the Foggy Mountain Bows playing "Rolling in My Sweet Baby's Arms" at a ridiculous tempo; it's as though they're about to fall off the cliff, but they never do... and it's great.

 

[unbrokenchain]

And unbrokenchain doth hereby request an addendum to his previous statement, which might more properly read "on what feels like the back of the beat, or at whatever location should avoideth overemphasis of tension, the situation so eloquently described by his esteemed colleague Wasnex, and supporting the maintenance of the originally established tempo."

 

[The Biz]

I'm into the slower, heartfelt numbers anyway more so than the way downtown foolin around kinda thing, just my taste

But then you need a good singer, which is sadly in short supply (relative to the amount of shredders)

 

[unbrokenchain]

But then you need a good singer, which is sadly in short supply (relative to the amount of shredders)

Right?? Everyone's hip to practicing their chops, but those who actually work on the singing voice are rare birds it seems. And not to condescend, I'm in that group too. My partner is a singer's singer, Westminster trained and such, which has caused me to be much more self-aware in my singing, but also less confident because now I hear all the shortcomings and am more frustrated by it, less inclined to practice or volunteer to sing lead as a result. And so I focus on the bass..

 

[Wasnex]

I'm somewhat with @martinc here. Could it be that the mandolinist seems to be ahead of the tempo because you are behind it? I've perceived what you're perceiving playing very fast pieces... when I've had a chance to listen to recordings of it, I hear the tension, and it would have sounded better if I'd just gone with the flow. See if you can find the Foggy Mountain Bows playing "Rolling in My Sweet Baby's Arms" at a ridiculous tempo; it's as though they're about to fall off the cliff, but they never do... and it's great.

I think one potential problem is people seem to have at least two different philosophies on the subject. Some like music to be settled and stable, and some people like the music to breath more.

Desiring the music to be settled and stable means the tempo remains consistent. It doesn't mean that the pocket cannot vary stylistically a bit from section to section as it should. In my experience these people often prefer for the drummer to use a click and think it encourages consistency and musicality.

People who prefer for the music to breath are not concerned if tempo varies, and will even argue that it makes the music sterile if tempo is stable. They hate using a click and think it stifles musicality.

I fall in the first group and often wonder if people in the second group simply have bad time and are unwilling to deal with it. Playing with people in the second group without a metronome to arbitrate tempo often results in time running away to the point where the tune loses its characteristic feel or groove. But as long as they can technically play the notes, people in the second group seem to enjoy it even more. So it could also be that they have the skill to lock in the tempo, but self-serving interest get in the way. I.E. they get a high from playing faster, and rather than exerting the discipline required to play at the appropriate tempo, they either push it were they want it or go with the flow when someone else does.

Regardless of whether my perceptions have any merit, group one and group two people tend to disagree strongly on the subject, which can cause conflict in the group and a great deal of dissatisfaction.

Another important factor is whether the drummer can play well with a click. Some can, and some can not. There are also some drummers who can, but will fake an inability to play with a click.

 

[unbrokenchain]

Playing with people in the second group without a metronome to arbitrate tempo often results in time running away to the point where the tune loses its characteristic feel or groove. But as long as they can technically play the notes, people in the second group seem to enjoy it even more. So it could also be that they have the skill to lock in the tempo, but self-serving interest get in the way. I.E. they get a high from playing faster, and rather than exerting the discipline required to play at the appropriate tempo, they either push it were they want it or go with the flow when someone else does.

This has been my experience with some mandolin players, a couple local guys in particular (who happen to also be drummers... coincidence? )

Not particularly falling into either group myself, I'd venture to say there might be a third, hybrid group as well. I practice individually to a metronome but I'm not fond of click tracks, have never had trouble syncing with them but I find it distracting from my experience of the music. I know it's largely necessary if one wants to make the type of recording that you can chop up and fly stuff around in protools, but these aren't my favorite types of recordings either.. I enjoy some variability in the tempo, but prefer it to be conscious and intentional, rather than the product of one player's zeal. /opinion

 

[Wasnex]

This has been my experience with some mandolin players, a couple local guys in particular (who happen to also be drummers... coincidence? )

Not particularly falling into either group myself, I'd venture to say there might be a third, hybrid group as well. I practice individually to a metronome but I'm not fond of click tracks, have never had trouble syncing with them but I find it distracting from my experience of the music. I know it's largely necessary if one wants to make the type of recording that you can chop up and fly stuff around in protools, but these aren't my favorite types of recordings either.. I enjoy some variability in the tempo, but prefer it to be conscious and intentional, rather than the product of one player's zeal. /opinion

To clarify, I don't think everyone should hear the click. When necessary, IMHO it's the poor drummer's burden to bear .

I used to work with a drummer who was fabulous with the click. I would say the best I have ever played with. Without out a click, he was still fabulous, but he had a tendency to run away to the point where bandleaders would sometimes call him out. Eventually he got to the point where he always wanted to use a click, which was sometimes a problem. There is not always time to fiddle with a metronome and tempo variation is necessary and appropriate at times...and some band leaders simply did not want him to use a click .

While I tend to fall mostly in group one, there are few things more beautiful than a well executed rubato section. Playing with time purposely and in a musical manner is a skill unto itself, and not something every musician can do well.

 

[martinc]

I think one potential problem is people seem to have at least two different philosophies on the subject. Some like music to be settled and stable, and some people like the music to breath more.

Desiring the music to be settled and stable means the tempo remains consistent. It doesn't mean that the pocket cannot vary stylistically a bit from section to section as it should. In my experience these people often prefer for the drummer to use a click and think it encourages consistency and musicality.

People who prefer for the music to breath are not concerned if tempo varies, and will even argue that it makes the music sterile if tempo is stable. They hate using a click and think it stifles musicality.

I fall in the first group and often wonder if people in the second group simply have bad time and are unwilling to deal with it. Playing with people in the second group without a metronome to arbitrate tempo often results in time running away to the point where the tune loses its characteristic feel or groove. But as long as they can technically play the notes, people in the second group seem to enjoy it even more. So it could also be that they have the skill to lock in the tempo, but self-serving interest get in the way. I.E. they get a high from playing faster, and rather than exerting the discipline required to play at the appropriate tempo, they either push it were they want it or go with the flow when someone else does.

Regardless of whether my perceptions have any merit, group one and group two people tend to disagree strongly on the subject, which can cause conflict in the group and a great deal of dissatisfaction.

Another important factor is whether the drummer can play well with a click. Some can, and some can not. There are also some drummers who can, but will fake an inability to play with a click.

 

[AGCurry]

Is playing with a click (when you're not recording) really a thing? If so, I'm REALLY old and in the way... I've never even heard of that. What's next? Digital pitch correction?

Seriously - get off my lawn! If someone can't keep a reasonably good tempo along with the other players, he/she is not in my band.

 

[martinc]

Allow me to offer a great example of bass playing by Bob Moore....the most recorded bass player ever with 18 thousand recording sessions: "Heartaches" with Patsy Cline on his gut stringed European upright.
He recorded country, bluegrass, jazz and pop material throughout his long career.
IMHO he demonstrated exactly what everyone here on this topic has been trying to explain.

 

[Wasnex]

Is playing with a click (when you're not recording) really a thing? If so, I'm REALLY old and in the way... I've never even heard of that. What's next? Digital pitch correction?

Seriously - get off my lawn!

I was going to say, yes and it has been for decades, but you're obviously being sarcastic .

 

[AGCurry]

I was going to say, yes and it has been for decades, but you're obviously being sarcastic .

Only half sarcastic... I'm serious in that I've heard inklings about drummers using a click in a live situation, but I've never come close to one (and wouldn't). I'm gobsmacked.

 

[unbrokenchain]

Only half sarcastic... I'm serious in that I've heard inklings about drummers using a click in a live situation, but I've never come close to one (and wouldn't). I'm gobsmacked.

I've seen most of the live stuff done with a visual metronome (read: computer/ipad screen). Most folks just use it for countoffs but definitely some folks keep it on, even beat-maps when the song has timing changes! I don't like to see it any more often than I like hearing backing tracks.. which is probably never..

 

[zontar]

I like varying things a bit that way--sometimes play ahead, others behind, other times on beat--they can add tension & depth to a song.

 

[210superair]

This has been my experience with some mandolin players, a couple local guys in particular (who happen to also be drummers... coincidence? )

Not particularly falling into either group myself, I'd venture to say there might be a third, hybrid group as well. I practice individually to a metronome but I'm not fond of click tracks, have never had trouble syncing with them but I find it distracting from my experience of the music. I know it's largely necessary if one wants to make the type of recording that you can chop up and fly stuff around in protools, but these aren't my favorite types of recordings either.. I enjoy some variability in the tempo, but prefer it to be conscious and intentional, rather than the product of one player's zeal. /opinion

I'm not fond of clicks either. But when I record the first backup dump track is to a click, then I turn it off and play with the music.

Man my last banjo player had a huge problem with this and it used to frustrate the band to no end, tho nobody ever said it to his face. Incredible picker, masters degree in live performance, but invariably would screw up the tempo at some point in many many songs in our list. The rest of us got adept at covering, but as a 1/5 thumper in an old time band, I kept time, and when people got off it always drove me absolutely nuts... Can be quite frustrating to deal with over and over.

 

[AGCurry]

Incredible picker, masters degree in live performance, but invariably would screw up the tempo at some point in many many songs in our list

Oy. I suppose if I had one piece of advice for people wanting to play with others, it would be "You can play wrong notes, or drop out for a beat or two, but never LOSE the beat."

 

[Rayjay]

Picture computer generated music. It's exactly on the beat. And it's sterile sounding, for that very reason.