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Double Bass Playing "ahead of the beat"
- Thread starter Ed S
- Start date
Playing ahead or behind refers to the pocket between two players. I define "the pocket" as rhythmic tension. With bass, typically they pocket is between you and the drummer. If you are ahead of the beat, or pushing the beat, it means you are playing slightly in front of where the drummer is placing the beat. A big challenge is both players how to agree on how wide the pocket is or time will tend to vary.
In reality there is a pocket between all of the instruments in the band, as each person interprets exactly where the beat falls, but I normally reference the drummer.
You also need to be concerned with rhythmic symmetry. There are lots of different ways to interpret how notes are spaced around a measure. Lot's of ways to interpret how to play a triplet for example. Also it very common for drummers to lay way back on two in some styles. Although rhythmic spacing does not need to even IMHO it does need to be consistent within a section of a song.
The interesting thing is the depth of the pocket and rhythmic asymmetry can give the perception that tempo is changing. So it can feel like you are speeding up or slowing down even if time is locked in to a metronome.
I have played this tune in many bands and found most struggle with keeping the feel and tempo consistent. Most really drag the triplets in the soli sections so much that they lose time.
Excellent post, thank you! You've articulated what I've experienced but lacked the words to describe. The one thing I'll add is "the beat" is organic and unpredictable for every group of players and each tune and, IMO, you should embrace it. Sometimes you'll want to lay back, other tunes push ahead, and sometimes you'll have made the right choice and sometimes the wrong choice. Experience tells you which; and, experimentation is your friend.
To the OP, you can practice how you approach the beat in a variety of ways, and IMO, all will make you a better player. Playing to a metronome, Drum Genius, play-a-longs, all help you hear the difference and maintain your intentions.
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In bluegrass, whether you play ahead or behind the beat, you'll be very lucky if the band or jam you play with knows how to follow (and rely on) the bass. IF they don't know how, then it doesn't matter whether you play ahead or behind, because you'll need to match someone else's rhythmic lead. As someone who usually plays lead banjo, I make it a point to follow the bass, which helps to force everyone else to do the same. This is particularly needed in random jams.
I'm new here, so maybe you "old-timers" can school me. I thought I posted this in the BG thread, yet all these folk are talking about drummers and jazz! 
Just kidding - as always, I appreciate everyone's views/experience.
When I played rock, I was all about locking in / my drummer. Several years ago my kid - a basoonist - worked w/ me on the different parts of the beat. I periodically (not as much as I should) work such things with the metronome. But the thing is, I don't jam w/ a bunch of metronomes!
This thread is along the lines of what I was talking about.
I'm usu pretty good about locking in w/ one instrumentalist - whoever impresses me as the most steady. Then together we try to herd the rest of them cats. If I backed up Bill Monroe or some equally assertive lead, I'd have no problem locking int a "pocket" with them - either pushing or pulling the beat. But I occasionally have difficulty locking in w/ a particular picker. Can make me question myself when that picker has a rep and/or obvious skills.
Happy new year all!
Just kidding - as always, I appreciate everyone's views/experience.
When I played rock, I was all about locking in / my drummer. Several years ago my kid - a basoonist - worked w/ me on the different parts of the beat. I periodically (not as much as I should) work such things with the metronome. But the thing is, I don't jam w/ a bunch of metronomes!
This thread is along the lines of what I was talking about.
I'm usu pretty good about locking in w/ one instrumentalist - whoever impresses me as the most steady. Then together we try to herd the rest of them cats. If I backed up Bill Monroe or some equally assertive lead, I'd have no problem locking int a "pocket" with them - either pushing or pulling the beat. But I occasionally have difficulty locking in w/ a particular picker. Can make me question myself when that picker has a rep and/or obvious skills.
Happy new year all!
Since I often float between bluegrass, old jazz and swing among other roots genre with all of my instruments, maybe I can help a little with this... And to be fair, I don't consider myself an expert at jazz, but I do perform a fair amount of old-jazz and have been doing so for about 15 years with various instruments; in contrast I have about half a century of bluegrass performing, primarily banjo, under my belt. That said, a lot of jazz shares a lot of characteristics with bluegrass (and there's also a lot of swing in bluegrass), and at the same time jazz shares a lot of characteristics with "classical" or orchestral music (as we commonly refer to it here to avoid confusion with music from the classical period).
In particular, in jazz the bass is the metronome for a band or combo. In early jazz that role was typically either provided by the double bass for static playing situations or by the tuba for marching or mobile bands. But, the drummer can be heard above everything else, so the bass player (or tuba player) and the drummer have to strike up a close working relationship in order for the band to work well.
Theoretically the bass should also be the metronome in bluegrass, but as suggested in my earlier post, many bluegrass environments do not actively support, or perhaps understand that. Again theoretically, since in bluegrass the banjo can be heard above everything else, the bass player and the banjo player have to build that working relationship in order for the band to work well...
And this is really important -- at the same time, if the band is purely acoustic as most bluegrass bands are, everyone has to make sure they are moderating their volume well enough that everyone can hear the double bass. This is the key to the other role that the double bass theoretically should play in acoustic bluegrass -- lead with dynamic volume control. Among acoustic bluegrass instruments, the double bass is uniquely able to lead a sensitive jam or band with dynamic volume control because of its low voice range; the banjo, and if present the fiddle, are almost always too loud and penetrating for this role, and the guitar and mandolin and Dobro are typically too quiet for this role. Not many people talk about this because dynamic volume control is so elusive for many bluegrass instrumentalists; as a serious banjoist, I've become particularly sensitive about it over the years.
Of the bands that I've played with, my favorites understood these relationships and fully supported the bass. But, it's not at all uncommon for jams or even some bands to not get any of this at all, in which case the banjo player, fiddler if present, or some combination of the mandolin, Dobro and guitar player drive the rhythm and dynamic volume control.
So, what do I do when I play the bass in bluegrass? If I'm being followed properly, I try to play ahead of the beat, and I lead with the dynamic volume control as needed for effect and clarity in the songs. And I play aggressively so the people that I'm playing with realize that I understand my role, otherwise they won't follow. If I'm not being followed properly, I play along with everyone else and melt in... And wish that I was playing with a group which did understand.
(Edited for spelling and to include fiddle.)
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I'll offer a contrasting view.
IMHO there is a huge problem with relying on the bass for time. The problem is people cannot tell where the bass player's ictus is. This is one reason why you feel like you are pushing the beat. Because the other players are relying on you for time to some degree, but they are interpreting your ictus in a different place than you are actually placing it. As an extreme example, one of the last drummers I worked with wanted me to have a big fat blooming tone, and I had the perception he was actually keying off the middle of my notes instead of the front end.
I mainly play with an amp and I have done experiments to see how aiming my amp and adjusting the treble response changes how others interpret where I am placing the beat, and the difference is definitely noticeable.
Also I worked in a big band many years ago where the director had the philosophy that I was responsible for time. IMHO, it was a total disaster and it was very frustrating trying to continuously hold back the drummer instead of playing on top of the beat as I normally would in up tempo swing. I believe an ironic process was going on. The more I slowed down the harder the drummer pushed ahead. So in order to get the drummer to slow down I would have had to try and speed up. Of course since I was responsible for time, guess who got in trouble?
Another important factor that people do not usually consider is it takes time for sound to travel across an ensemble. The distances are often not all that consequential if you only consider the distance one way, but adjusting the pocket means a two way trip. Here's what I mean. Player A plays a note and it takes a certain amount of time Z to to get to player B. Player B hears the note and plays a note in time with the first note. It also takes time Z for Player B's note to get back to player A. So now player A hears a pocket developing where Player B sounds 2Z behind the beat. This assumes both players agree where the ictus is to begin with, which is typically not the case. IMHO, The solution here is for A to be the drummer, and the drummer should own and lay down good solid time and play from close to the center of the band.
This leads to my conclusion. IMHO everyone in the ensemble owns time, but the primary responsibility should fall to the drummer. Here's why. The drums play almost all the time, and the transient attack of percussion instruments is more consistent and audible than other instruments. Basically the drums should be the center of time and everyone's pocket should really vary around what the drummer is laying down.
The drummer I mentioned earlier was super talented (young prodigy) and wanted to be able to play freely with the pocket while I held down the center beat. Of course that did not work very well and I told him my philosophy over and over again. Funny thing happened. One day he read an article by some respected drummer that basically said the drummer's primary responsibility was to keep solid time. It was pretty funny because he was really excited about it and used words like revolutionary to describe the article, but it was really the same thing as I am saying. Our pocket was real tight after that, and I had enough freedom to do what I needed to do.
The time it takes for the sound to travel is negligible at distances of a few feet. Unless you stand on each side of a huge stage (without monitors) you can count it out.
My experience tells me the variable distance between players becomes a factor faster than most people think. There are probably more factors at work than just the distance between the player. In other words, multiple timing errors add up incrementally to cause a problematic amount of delay. For example imagine a reverberant room where you have the sound of the cymbals bouncing off a reflective surface before making its way to your ears.
Here is what I mean by variable distance. Say one day you set up on the high hat side of the drumset and the next day you set up on the other side of the set. In my experience this subtly changes the way the pocket feels with the drummer. It's not enough to cause a major problem, but it's within human perception. IMHO its a good idea for the band to set up a consistent way, so people get used to the way the ensemble sounds and feels around them.
Here is a study that may shed some insight on just how sensitive we are to action-sound latency.
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I believe the conclusion of the article is action-sound latency starts impacting accuracy when the delay is between 10-20ms. This is consistent with other articles I have read as well. The propagation time back and fourth from one side of a big band to the other is significantly over 20ms.
I love how folks seem determined to ignore that the OP's question was posed in a forum for bluegrass, a genre that traditionally (and still generally) does not employ a drummer.
My dad played upright in both orchestral and jazz settings. He said that it takes a lot of practice to learn when to actually pick or start the bowing to get the beat where you want it.
I was amazed. Who would have thought practice would be involved.
I love how the only contribution some people make to threads is to criticize what other people offer
. Sure I mentioned drums, but I also mentioned a bunch of other factors that relate to music in general, including why I think it's ineffective to place primary responsibility for time keeping on the bass.
... And to be fair, I probably started it by trying to excuse / justify explaining bluegrass bass work in the light of jazz.
True, no drums in most bluegrass... But there is a double bass typically, and often the banjo plays a similar role in bluegrass to what drums do in jazz.
While I don't fully agree with @Wasnex 's conclusion as it applies to bluegrass, I do think his conclusion is something we could all benefit from by considering. It can't hurt to think about the possibilities.
True, no drums in most bluegrass... But there is a double bass typically, and often the banjo plays a similar role in bluegrass to what drums do in jazz.
While I don't fully agree with @Wasnex 's conclusion as it applies to bluegrass, I do think his conclusion is something we could all benefit from by considering. It can't hurt to think about the possibilities.
I love how the only contribution some people make to threads is to criticize what other people offer
Sure I mentioned drums, but I also mentioned a bunch of other factors that relate to music in general, including why I think it's ineffective to place primary responsibility for time keeping on the bass.
In post #27, you wrote 600+ words about the relationship between you, your big band director and a drummer.
Not every thread can/should/has to be about everything. There is value in focused discussion.
Another factor I think detracts from the idea of making the bass responsible for time is the subdivision of the beat. In bluegrass, the bass usually plays primarily on the beat and the tempo of the bass line is usually pretty slow. Other instruments may play on the beat and also play duple, triple, and quadruple subdivisions within the beat. The more divided the beat is, the more accurate the time should be.
Frequently one of the higher stringed instruments will play an accented percussive sound on the upbeats and this can really lock in the time IMHO.
In my experience a guitar, banjo, or mandolin can do a fine job of keeping time in a bluegrass group. Each situation has to be considered in context of course, and different players have their own unique tricks for implying more solid time.
I do think its fairly common for bluegrass groups to have bass players, but it's also fairly common for bluegrass players to get together and cutup without a bass player. Who keeps time during these jams sessions, and does time get better or worse when the bass player joins in?
How about making a contribution instead arguing and continuing to derail the thread. I'm currently specifically discussing bluegrass.
I've played bass in various bluegrass bands for almost 40 years. I've listened to a lot of players talking about playing "on top" of the beat; talking about "pushing or driving" the beat; about the bass being "responsible" for the timing. I absolutely agree with the previous poster who opined that all members are responsible for timing. If one player, bass or otherwise, is playing ahead of the beat, then the entire band is playing out of time. Find people who know how to play in time.
I will make one concession to the "responsible bass" point: if some one, usually a banjo player, kicks off a tune at warp speed, then I work my butt off to keep it at that tempo, and not let him or her off the hook.
I will make one concession to the "responsible bass" point: if some one, usually a banjo player, kicks off a tune at warp speed, then I work my butt off to keep it at that tempo, and not let him or her off the hook.
In my experience, if it's anyone, it's the guitar, and at least in my main band, that's rhythm guitar; and very often, it's the bass notes on the rhythm guitar. Mando and banjo can be all over the place with syncopation and hard to follow. Dobro and fiddle long notes don't cut the beat well enough.
Our band does perform on stage without double bass occasionally, when it does all eyes are on the rhythm guitar. Literally, all eyes, because it isn't unusual for us to not be able to hear it when we need it.
And I do agree, we're all responsible for the beat, but having a consistent stable beat to re-align to when things veer off a little, which does happen in real life, is really helpful. Nobody is perfect, including the metronome instrument, but having that one instrument to focus on while rebounding, instead of trying to figure out who has the real beat, is a good thing.
Playing “ahead” of or “behind” the beat isn’t about playing faster or slower. It’s about the feel and how placing the note impacts the feel. In bluegrass, I would usually play ahead of or some would say, on top of the beat. But not always, and I might well be asked to lay under the beat - behind the beat - for a relaxed feel. It’s as someone errors said up there somewhere, about creating the pocket. Being able to do either, or play right on the beat, are all essential pieces in the toolbox. And it’s also a conversation I have with others in the band - what do they want?
