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Double Bass Playing "ahead of the beat"

#81
Rayjay said:
Picture computer generated music. It's exactly on the beat. And it's sterile sounding, for that very reason.
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Ranjay: I agree. Listen to Bob Moore's bass work on Patsy Clines "Heartaches" that I mentioned in an earlier comment. He is right on the beat but he sure as heck does not sound sterile even he he walks it. Also check out "Walking After Midnight". Bob's bass line defines that song. He is bang on the money as far as timing goes but he plays it with great feel and just the right amount of sustain on his notes. Sustain is easier on the upright than the slab though. I really notice it when I play my P bass after the upright so I know I have to work a bit harder with my left hand to control the note length better.
The danger when concentrating on being on top of the beat, is that you end up making everything sound like a march. But being on top of the beat doesn't mean you can't make it swing or add whatever other feel it needs. It's all about the left hand. I see my job in the two bands I play in, as being there with the timing and complement the singers and other band members in what they do. As Bob Moore told me one time "sometimes it's better to just play the one and get the hell out of the way". The "one" is where the timing is.
 
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#82
martinc said:
Ranjay: I agree. Listen to Bob Moore's bass work on Patsy Clines "Heartaches" that I mentioned in an earlier comment. He is right on the beat but he sure as heck does not sound sterile even he he walks it. Also check out "Walking After Midnight". Bob's bass line defines that song. He is bang on the money as far as timing goes but he plays it with great feel and just the right amount of sustain on his notes. Sustain is easier on the upright than the slab though. I really notice it when I play my P bass after the upright so I know I have to work a bit harder with my left hand to control the note length better.
The danger when concentrating on being on top of the beat, is that you end up making everything sound like a march. But being on top of the beat doesn't mean you can't make it swing or add whatever other feel it needs. It's all about the left hand. I see my job in the two bands I play in, as being there with the timing and complement the singers and other band members in what they do. As Bob Moore told me one time "sometimes it's better to just play the one and get the hell out of the way". The "one" is where the timing is.
Click to expand...

Yes those are great examples.

Here's the bottom line- ahead, behind, on, how much of it, etc- they need to be felt to come across as natural sounding and not forced. Music is indeed a language and where you are in relation to the beat is much like your musical accent of sorts. It comes more from listening and from immersion within a style, and much less from practice or actual intention.

In these discussions, as an example of extreme behind the beat playing, that D'angelo album with Pino is often referenced.
 
#83
Rayjay said:
Yes those are great examples.

Here's the bottom line- ahead, behind, on, how much of it, etc- they need to be felt to come across as natural sounding and not forced. Music is indeed a language and where you are in relation to the beat is much like your musical accent of sorts. It comes more from listening and from immersion within a style, and much less from practice or actual intention.

In these discussions, as an example of extreme behind the beat playing, that D'angelo album with Pino is often referenced.
Click to expand...
 
#84
Rayjay: a lot also depends on the type of music we play. Pino is way above my level but I enjoy hearing him play. He can do stuff at a higher level and with wider variety of singers than the rest of us acoustic, country, blues and bluegrass players could not. We can still create music but for us,solid timing and groove is a big deal. The Eagles showed us what that was all about.
 
#85
I think of "the beat" as a clock with a single hand that makes a complete revolution every quarter note. In a usual mid tempo bluegrass tune i tend to play at about 1:00 on the 1 and about 11:00 on the 3. The rest of the band will need to understand, or feel, what's happening and find their spot on the clock, because unfortunately you can't make a groove by yourself. Unless you're Barry Bales.
 
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#87
Paul New said:
I think of "the beat" as a clock with a single hand that makes a complete revolution every quarter note. In a usual mid tempo bluegrass tune i tend to play at about 1:00 on the 1 and about 11:00 on the 3. The rest of the band will need to understand, or feel, what's happening and find their spot on the clock, because unfortunately you can't make a groove by yourself. Unless you're Barry Bales.
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I think you absolutely can and should create the groove by yourself, through placement of bass notes, the length of your notes, the tone, and subtle embellishments you can add from time to time. Be the engine of the train, and let everyone else get on board. And I'm not Barry Bales!
 
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#88
statsc said:
I think you absolutely can and should create the groove by yourself, through placement of bass notes, the length of your notes, the tone, and subtle embellishments you can add from time to time. Be the engine of the train, and let everyone else get on board. And I'm not Barry Bales!
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A groove works better when everybody hears it. I've been told that I have a good "pulse" but that ain't a groove by itself. Yes, it's definitely an art and you certainly are not Barry Bales!
 
#90
Paul New said:
I think of "the beat" as a clock with a single hand that makes a complete revolution every quarter note. In a usual mid tempo bluegrass tune i tend to play at about 1:00 on the 1 and about 11:00 on the 3. The rest of the band will need to understand, or feel, what's happening and find their spot on the clock, because unfortunately you can't make a groove by yourself. Unless you're Barry Bales.
Click to expand...

As a caveat...There are at least two major aspects to consider and this clock idea seems to address one of them and ignore other.

The aspect I think you are addressing is what I call the pocket. The pocket is the rhythmic tension between players. The clock analogy works really well, if you consider 12:00 to be where the drummer is placing the beat. Keep in mind that your placement of the beat is the reference for the drummer; if you are pushing ahead, the drummer has to pull back by the same amount. If the two of you do not agree on the size of the pocket, time will not be stable.

The aspect that I don't think you are really addressing is the rhythmic symmetry of a measure. Let's assume we are in 4/4 time. If time has perfect rhythmic symmetry, all four beats are evenly spaced and exactly in the same place.

But time is not always perfectly symmetrical. As an example, swing feel may be loose or tight. Loose is essentially based on a perfectly spaced triplet. As you tighten of into a shuffle or hip-hop funk, the sub-division can approach straight time based on a 16th note. Another example is certain songs feel great if the drummer lays back on 2 and 4.
 
#91
And that's what I mean by saying that everyone must hear it. If you just lead the beat and the drummer doesn't understand, the groove disappears, band rushes. Try leading the 1 and laying back on the 3 when you're playing in 2. Try it.

Isn't this the bluegrass sub? What's a drummer?
 
#92
Paul New said:
And that's what I mean by saying that everyone must hear it. If you just lead the beat and the drummer doesn't understand, the groove disappears, band rushes. Try leading the 1 and laying back on the 3 when you're playing in 2. Try it.

Isn't this the bluegrass sub? What's a drummer?
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I would expect a two feel to be written in cut time (2/2). That means the half note gets the beat and there are two beats to the bar. You might think of bass and mandolin playing a (boom chuck, boom chuck) pattern. These are quarter note sub divisions, and you could think of them as (1 and, 2 and). You could also think of them as (1,2,3,4).

Probably not a good idea to lay back on 3 and 4 as I think the internal rhythmic symmetry of measures should be pretty even. That does not mean that an important aspects of time and feel should be ignored.

Even without a drummer, the pocket still exists between the bass and other instruments: guitar, banjo, mandolin, fiddle, dobro, jug, whatever. Course if your a heretic, you might even throw some drums in ;).

Injoy!
 
#93
Paul New said:
A groove works better when everybody hears it. I've been told that I have a good "pulse" but that ain't a groove by itself. Yes, it's definitely an art and you certainly are not Barry Bales!
Click to expand...
Yes; certainly everyone works together to maintain the groove. However, consider this: in a straight ahead bluegrass tune you as the bass player play mostly on 1 & 3; the mando is on 2 & 4; guitar plays a single note on 1 &3 an octave above the bass and chords on 2 & 4; banjo and fiddle both chunk on 2 & 4 when they're not soloing; so you have that rhythmic space and pitch area to yourself. If you're confident and "infectious" with your groove, you can really drive the band with the bass, and the other players will follow you, and can maybe even relax on their parts a little. Anyway, that's been my experience.
 
#94
I think it's easier to grasp if you've already played a wind instrument like sax or trumpet, or some other instrument where the note isn't loudest at the initial moment of attack. To sound on the beat, you begin the note just a hair ahead. From there, it's easy to get into actually playing when you hear the beat, which makes a laid-back, dreamy (dare I say, junkie?) just-after-the beat feel, or be more aggressive and play just ahead of just ahead.
 
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#99
Paul New said:
And that's what I mean by saying that everyone must hear it. If you just lead the beat and the drummer doesn't understand, the groove disappears, band rushes. Try leading the 1 and laying back on the 3 when you're playing in 2. Try it.

Isn't this the bluegrass sub? What's a drummer?
Click to expand...

Virtually all traditional Bluegrass music is 2/4 or 3/4. If you're playing in 2, there is no "3."
 

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