Playing bass at jams when guitars use capos

[Humbled]

Whenever I'm emailed charts that I'm expected to learn in a few days, my practice starts with converting it to NNS.

It helps me internalize the changes, and has me all set for the often-inevitable key shifts. I highly recommend it for anyone doing short-notice gigs.

 

[BAG]

Not sure where all the defensiveness is coming from in this thread. I never said that the capo, or its proponents was to be shunned.
I wish I could take it all back as my post has clearly raised some hackles. But, there it is.

It did come across, to me at least, as "use capo=lazy or not very good guitarist".

I am actually glad that isn't what you meant.

As for playing bass with capo'd guitarist on-the-fly, It does get easier the more you do it. And I do like the "handy dandy capo chart" (pat pending) to help with transposing. I'm having to do it more often lately as my kids get older, and their voices mature, they are bringing some capo'd songs back a fret or so occasionally. I'm actually starting to think they are doing it just to challenge me........

 

[sean_on_bass]

Ask the other players what key they are playing in. Dont focus on the capo, because that will not necessarily determine the key.

 

[BAG]

Ask the other players what key they are playing in. Dont focus on the capo, because that will not necessarily determine the key.

That will work fine for decent players however at an open mic/open jam night some of the guitarist/singers probably won't know what key they are actually playing. If they don't you do need to ask them the chords in the song and transpose as needed.

 

[Ianhin]

On guitar or bass, the one thing to remember is that if a Capo is applying too much pressure on the strings, where-ever you put it, it could throw your instrument out of tune. Put it in the wrong spot, you could get unintentional string buzz.

I don't use a Capo on my jumbo-fret light-string electric guitar because of the out-of-tune reason.

Certainly you can if you want. I recommend trying it with or without capos depending on what's more comfortable for you. Once you get into the realm of what's taboo according to others, you start limiting yourself one way or another.

Thanks. I dont get any string buzz but i m sure it s not 100% in tune when i use a capo on my bass...it cant b, but it s so slight u can t even notice it..but plug into a tuner and i m sure u ll c a diff.....

 

[Humbled]

Capos don't "do" or "fix" anything on their own.

It's a fairly inelegant tool that one can use for benefit or harm, depending on one's acumen for it.

 

[GregT]

So last night, playing bass at the jam, the guy put the capo on the second fret. I saw him start to play in a G formation which I was able to recognize as A. I stopped watching what he was doing and just listened as we played. It went a lot better than trying to watch and transpose. This was more in line with what a lot of you suggested and it really helped.

 

[JamPlay]

sounds like training your ear so that you can rely on your instincts will remedy the situation.
Realize the home key of the song. From there, all chords, are departures. How you arrive back "home" is the musicianship awareness you will need that will aid you in any jam situation. Asking someone what key you are in is a solid start. From there, how does your ear process music?
Some folks spend lots of time with scales, leading to mode study, etc.
Other folks, spend lots of time with songs, and eschew the theory.
Bridging these two aforementioned scenarios will help you to develop a solid ear, that will make it so you understand where the song is going. There will be no reliance on seeing a guitarists hand on the fretboard, regardless of capo at all. The deal is to work on understanding the music, music in general. Training young musicians has been my vocation for the last 28 years on the college level. The results I see and hear coming from musicians who jam often, who train their ears to hear, who develop an ability to be able to foreshadow upcoming chords of songs, are the coveted players in any community. And while you are working on your ears, don't forget the groove...That seals the deal in a rhythm section and will keep you working anywhere..

 

[Happynoj]

That's it exactly. They didn't know the key they were in so I needed to figure it out quickly so I could support the music in a professional way.

If they can't tell you what key they are playing in, I wouldn't bother with being professional.

 

[anotherhomeysan]

Whenever I'm emailed charts that I'm expected to learn in a few days, my practice starts with converting it to NNS.

It helps me internalize the changes, and has me all set for the often-inevitable key shifts. I highly recommend it for anyone doing short-notice gigs.

I'm going to start doing this when my church worship leader sends out the chord charts for the week. I've been stung a time or two with last minute key changes and had been using open strings and other ideas not conducive to the new key.
I really want a better idea of what note relative to the 1 is causing that tension, where the slash chords are coming from, etc. I bet this will help.
Started today.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

FWIW - Several years ago we started going to Mountain View, Ark. It's where people come from all over to jam bluegrass, country, and old time music on the town square. You will find jamming circles all over town. And it's here that I first saw the capo being used for every song. I ask one of the guys why he capoed every song, and he said; "I just know how to play in G, so I capo and stay in G".

Guitar guys in our band capo any song that is in a flat key, i.e. Ab, Bb, etc. I do not think it is about being lazy, and has more to do with not knowing the fingering needed for those flat chords.

 

[Jay Corwin]

We were talking about this over on the dark side as well. As many have said - the key is the key regardless of capos or tunings.

It's my opinion that if the guitarist can't identify the actual key he is playing in for the band, then I'm not terribly interested in playing with them. Chord shape G doens't mean you are playing a G and so on.

If you're in an ensemble, the bass player isn't the only one that needs this information to function. Chord shapes don't change for us because the guitarist capos.

 

[Jay Corwin]

FWIW - Several years ago we started going to Mountain View, Ark. It's where people come from all over to jam bluegrass, country, and old time music on the town square. You will find jamming circles all over town. And it's here that I first saw the capo being used for every song. I ask one of the guys why he capoed every song, and he said; "I just know how to play in G, so I capo and stay in G".

Guitar guys in our band capo any song that is in a flat key, i.e. Ab, Bb, etc. I do not think it is about being lazy, and has more to do with not knowing the fingering needed for those flat chords.

It's also about chord shapes and how they sound, especially in acoustic music.

 

[BAG]

If they can't tell you what key they are playing in, I wouldn't bother with being professional.

It's my opinion that if the guitarist can't identify the actual key he is playing in for the band, then I'm not terribly interested in playing with them.

I've known a few decent singer/songwriters who didn't immediately know what key they are actually in when using a capo at times, particularly if they are capo'd up more than a couple of frets. They could usually work it out if given time but never had to.

And, they could still sing and play really well and were great fun to accompany, and in most cases were really appreciative of having some bottom end with their songs.

It's not hard to ask them what chords they are playing and work it out for yourself and then lay down a good bass line while having fun...... or you could act all superior and walk away.

Sure, if they play crap walk away, but just because they can't name the key straight away doesn't mean they can't play the song they want to play.

Guitar guys in our band capo any song that is in a flat key, i.e. Ab, Bb, etc. I do not think it is about being lazy, and has more to do with not knowing the fingering needed for those flat chords.

Actually, it's usually more about the fingering of many of the flat chords being impossible in open chordings and if barre chords are used some ringing open strings or other voicings are lost and the sound of the song can be negatively affected.

To try and give you a bass equivalent, it would be like the difference between playing a G (I III V) from the low G on the E string, the singer wants the key up two semi-tones, and instead of moving your chord up two steps you play an inverted A starting on the 2nd fret of the high G string. Yes, you've taken your chord up from the G to the A but it sounds very different and would sound better if you'd just moved up two frets.......just like the guitarist would with a capo.

 

[Sam Dingle]

I played with a singer song writer a few years ago who would play either with a campo or in some strange open tuning. Having played guitar before I just figured out where the notes were on the neck and went with it. I'd say the best thing to do is practice doing it (meaning keep playing with people like that). Most people will say "Ok the song goes G, C, F, Am"…oh but the campo is on the 4th fret". You just gotta figure it out

 

[thabassmon]

The key here as many have said is ear training, plain and simple.

As for the capo allowing for voicing that would be impossible without one.
Yes it can do that
But

a C# minor 7 in an impossible (without capo) voicing is still C# minor 7. It still consists of the same chord tones as every other C# minor 7. And that goes for every chord.

 

[quickfix]

The key here as many have said is ear training, plain and simple.

As for the capo allowing for voicing that would be impossible without one.
Yes it can do that
But

a C# minor 7 in an impossible (without capo) voicing is still C# minor 7. It still consists of the same chord tones as every other C# minor 7. And that goes for every chord.

And just for fun, here's three very easy voicings of C#m7 that don't require a capo. But they do require the will to learn.

The first one would be used as standard fare. The 2nd and 3rd I'd use when working further up the neck just for economy of movement, and sometimes for their own special voicings.

 

[thewildest]

And just for fun, here's three very easy voicings of C#m7 that don't require a capo. But they do require the will to learn.

The first one would be used as standard fare. The 2nd and 3rd I'd use when working further up the neck just for economy of movement, and sometimes for their own special voicings.

+1. Before picking up the bass I played electric and acoustic (classic) guitar for 25+ years. While I understand the practical use of the capo, after studying hundreds of guitar techniques, there are infinite voicings/inversions on any chords that should allow you to leverage open strings and keep the character of your song... Any chord can be played on the vicinity of any fret, with any voicing combination on both the guitar and bass guitar. For people that know just one chord pattern, the capo comes handy.... but definitively tells how narrow the guitar player's knowledge of the instrument actually is. Same that would be to play the bass with just 1 string, or ask the singer to bring a harmonizer to adjust the pitch.

Another vote to the suggestion that you listen to the music and create a structure based on your instrument (bass) that makes sense to you. Follow the music instead of your guitar player...F# or Ab should be as relevant to you as G or C.... they are all good and relevant notes/tonalities.

 

[RustyAxe]

For people that know just one chord pattern, the capo comes handy.... but definitively tells how narrow the guitar player's knowledge of the instrument actually is.

That may be true if the only purpose of the capo was to transpose the pitch ... but it isn't. I use capos of all sorts ... cut, partial, full ... and not for changing key, but to get different chord voicings. In a duo/trio it's useful to have multiple instruments (eg, two guitars) play the chords in different voicings (eg, one plays the E open, while the other capos 2 frets and plays the E in D shapes). I have no use for a capo when playing electric guitar (lead or rhythm).

It's a useful TOOL ... and is NOT a cheat, as so many bassists seem to think. The guitar player should know what key he is in, the bassplayer should be able to transpose fairly seamlessly. All very simple for a musician. But the OP is about an open acoustic jam ... where most of the guitar holders don't know very much other than a handful of "cowboy chords", and the bassists probably don't know much more.

 

[GregT]

The reason they are using a capo isn't so much of an issue to me when I am the bass player. My job is to find the key and play in it. Last night, same jam session, different night. I am absolutely getting better at it. A few times I just looked up, away from everything and listened and slid into the correct chords. I am also reading the hand positions better just by repetition. It took me a few times to simply realize that "any bar chord above a capo is still exactly what it should be. I'm getting it. In the past, I would bring in my Precision and my Stratocaster. Last night, just the bass. So much fun. There was a lull between songs so I stepped up to the mic and sang Superfreak. They asked for another so I played bass and sang Another One Bites the Dust and Swinging Doors. Although it has nothing to do with capos, I am really enjoying bass more and more. Tonight, an outdoor jam and I have been asked to be the bassist. The capos were just a hurdle I came across recently; not a problem. All part of becoming a better bass player.