Playing Dive Bars. Recommendations for power situation

[Arx]

A couple quick points.. overtaxing the AC isn't likely to damage any of your equipment, unless it gets hit by people throwing crap at you when the lights go out.

IMO, most power conditioners are a waste of money. I'm not going to get into that one though...

A class D amp is more efficient, and will put LESS load on the mains than a comparably sized AB.

Typically they use SMPS as well, which actually makes them less sensitive to line voltage, as they just increase the switchers' on time to compensate (to put it simply, they have feedback and auto-adjust) Also, the inrush current is usually lighter than a large linear supply, so is less likely to trip breakers upon turn-on.

If you want to be safe, play your stuff really loud while measuring the power. Add up all the peak levels, and see if you're below the breaker rating.

 

[Arx]

So a quality surge protector is functions the same as a power conditioner right?

The majority of them, yeah... which is to say, they don't do very much.

Usually they have a choke to try and absorb any high frequency on the lines, and some MOVs to sacrificially absorb large voltage spikes, limiting the overvoltage to around 400V, assuming it's short enough duration that they're not completely destroyed.

There are other designs that do more, but are generally still pretty questionable.

Good quality gear will often have better protection and filtering in its supply anyways.

-Nick

 

[georgestrings]

Are all you guys paying attention? At least once a month somebody brings up power conditioners. They are a waste of money unless you are willing to spend alot of money.

Exactly - I have to laugh when someone thinks that their $100 or less Furman is going to magically make an underpowered band electrical feed work better... If you're really worried about that sort of thing, and play places like that on a regular basis - pay a qualified electrician to build a distro setup for you, and learn how to tap it in yourself... No "power conditioner" is going to make a difference if you're trying to feed 50 amps worth of equipment draw from 2 measly 15 or 20 amp circuits - and ANY amp made in the last 20 years or so will have it's own built-in filter scheme...

A $5 outlet tester, and $10 power strip will get the job done every bit as well as most "power conditioners" - save your money...



- georgestrings

 

[tombowlus]

Good quality gear will often have better protection and filtering in its supply anyways.

In many dive bars, I have found all kinds of fun things thrown on the same circuit, and many of them (neon signs are the best!) tend to make your rig more noisy. One of the reasons that I do like to use a 'line conditioner' myself (in addition to the surge suppression, and oftentimes voltage meter) is the noise filtering. Of course, it's best to just find and unplug the offending devices, but if that is not an option, sometimes, AC line filtering can take out unwanted noise, which is my primary reason for recommending them.

Tom.

 

[TerenceSharp]

Totally unrelated, But the thread is pretty much answered anyway.

If say, You were VERY worried of your very expensive tube amp blowing due to a power outage or some other electricity related issue. Couldn't one get a decent capacity UPS designed for servers? such as: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (2.7Kw Capacity; Gives you 3 mins to shut your rig off properly at full load)

That is, Of course, Assuming you had money to burn and are willing to have quite a bit of extra weight (44KG!!) to take to gigs, Alot for something that seems so unnecessary.

 

[joegeezer]

Get used to it. It's the one thing that hasn't changed in 40 years. Almost all small dive bars give a band two lousy outlets, with four plug ins. It seems to never end. They know it, they avoid being there at set-up time, they always swear they'll fix it by the next time your there, and it never happens. Never will.

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

I have never used a power conditioner with MI amplification or PA and never will. Totally bogus IMHO.

Totally unrelated, But the thread is pretty much answered anyway.

If say, You were VERY worried of your very expensive tube amp blowing due to a power outage or some other electricity related issue. Couldn't one get a decent capacity UPS designed for servers? such as: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (2.7Kw Capacity; Gives you 3 mins to shut your rig off properly at full load)

That is, Of course, Assuming you had money to burn and are willing to have quite a bit of extra weight (44KG!!) to take to gigs, Alot for something that seems so unnecessary.

Not unrelated at all. As suggested earlier also, UPS is the only way to go if You want total control over Your voltage.

Fortunately the places with ~230 line voltages, are cosiderably better when it comes down to the available power and on top of that the three phase is also usually available. I run our equipment usually from 3~16A, 1 phase for sound, 1 or 2 phases for the lights. If You have dimmers in the same circuit as the sound, you're just asking for trouble. IME.

Regards
Sam

 

[Arx]

Hi.

I have never used a power conditioner with MI amplification or PA and never will. Totally bogus IMHO.



Not unrelated at all. As suggested earlier also, UPS is the only way to go if You want total control over Your voltage.

Fortunately the places with ~230 line voltages, are cosiderably better when it comes down to the available power and on top of that the three phase is also usually available. I run our equipment usually from 3~16A, 1 phase for sound, 1 or 2 phases for the lights. If You have dimmers in the same circuit as the sound, you're just asking for trouble. IME.

Regards
Sam

UPS isn't really an ideal solution either, though unless it's on online one. Most upses just pass through the AC until they sense a significant problem, at which point they switch to their inverters. Unless you're running off of a several hundred pounds of batteries, it's not going to do a lot of good, other than letting you play one last song after the breakers trip.

If you're super worried about the sagging line voltage, you'll need some sort of a booster. Some of the outrageously expensive monster ones are basically a microcontroller driven motor on a variac. Truth is that most gear isn't that picky about the voltage level and it's not worth the several thousand dollars and extra weight to lug around.

For noise purposes a GOOD line conditioner is really what you want. It'll be big, heavy, and expensive. Your standard off the shelf power conditioner is no more than an oversized power bar in a fancy box.

It probably has a lot more energy absorbtion than a cheap power bar, but unfortunately the MOVs typically don't react until a couple hundred volts too late, so it's not likely to make much difference.

I think most people worry too much about power issues they can't fix. Check it all out to be sure it's safe (not miswired), and avoid putting amps on the same circuits as noisy loads (dimmers and non-incandescent lighting, some switching supplies) if you can.

I mean, in the end it's your gear, so I wouldn't tell you what to do, but I'd just go for it. Skip any extra lighting and stuff you can do without, maybe turn your stuff down a bit (most bands play too loud anyways IMO) and try to avoid overloading the circuit.

maybe your guitarist could pick up a nice efficient class d with a SMPS too.

 

[Rawkabilly]

Get used to it. It's the one thing that hasn't changed in 40 years. Almost all small dive bars give a band two lousy outlets, with four plug ins. It seems to never end. They know it, they avoid being there at set-up time, they always swear they'll fix it by the next time your there, and it never happens. Never will.

Man, is that ever the truth! Been there, done that.

 

[georgestrings]

Over the course of 30 years, I've played well over 1000 gigs in all kinds of places, including "dive bars" with crappy electricity - as a guitarist and a bassist, using everything from an old Marshall 100watt Superlead to a 70's Twin Reverb, to modern SS bass heads... That being said, I've never used a "power conditioner", and I've never blown/fried an amp... I HAVE refused to play a gig when the outlets tested no ground, or reverse hot/neutral - but that's just good common sense, is easily detected with the aforementioned $5 outlet tester, and STILL wouldn't be helped by a "power conditioner"....

My current gigging rig consists of an SKB 4 slot ATA rack case with a Korg DTR-2000 tuner(not cheap), an X2 XDR-95 wireless receiver(also not cheap), and a Peavey T-Max head(marginally cheap) - my protection for that??? A $10 power strip - and honestly, as long as I do a quick check with the outlet tester, I'm confident that I'll have no troubles...

I have no reason to lie about any of that - so feel free to draw your own conclusions...


- georgestrings

 

[NoHitWonder]

I use either 1 or 2 voltage regulators for our PA equipment at most of the places we gig whether we need them or not. They are suppose to deliver a constant 120V even if the input voltage is as low as 80V or as high as 140V. The units have a maximum ouput capacity of 1250W and a nominal input current of 12A.
There are a couple places we play that if we don't use them, we trip a breaker at some point in the night (the low voltage light stay on in these clubs).
The downside to the units are that they are heavy and bulky (they were designed for use with computers).

 

[Arx]

I use either 1 or 2 voltage regulators for our PA equipment at most of the places we gig whether we need them or not. They are suppose to deliver a constant 120V even if the input voltage is as low as 80V or as high as 140V. The units have a maximum ouput capacity of 1250W and a nominal input current of 12A.
There are a couple places we play that if we don't use them, we trip a breaker at some point in the night (the low voltage light stay on in these clubs).
The downside to the units are that they are heavy and bulky (they were designed for use with computers).

umm.... I'm going to have to disagee with your reasoning there. If the voltage is low, your "regulator" will have to compensate by pulling MORE current, so you're actually more likely to blow the breakers.

If your amps have an unregulated linear supply, which is fairly common, your regulators will prevent the drop in headroom that you would get due to the low voltage.

If your stuff has switching supplies, it won't care.. when the voltage drops, it'll increase the on time of the switchers and pull more current to compensate. Your regulators probably work the same way, if they're a rectifier/inverter type (kinda like an online UPS without the batteries). They may also be the robotic variac type, but the end result is the same.

So, "regulator" will increase current draw, and increase headroom of amplifier on an unregulated supply.

Will do absolutely nothing on a switching supply.

-Nick

 

[Arx]

Over the course of 30 years, I've played well over 1000 gigs in all kinds of places, including "dive bars" with crappy electricity - as a guitarist and a bassist, using everything from an old Marshall 100watt Superlead to a 70's Twin Reverb, to modern SS bass heads... That being said, I've never used a "power conditioner", and I've never blown/fried an amp... I HAVE refused to play a gig when the outlets tested no ground, or reverse hot/neutral - but that's just good common sense, is easily detected with the aforementioned $5 outlet tester, and STILL wouldn't be helped by a "power conditioner"....

My current gigging rig consists of an SKB 4 slot ATA rack case with a Korg DTR-2000 tuner(not cheap), an X2 XDR-95 wireless receiver(also not cheap), and a Peavey T-Max head(marginally cheap) - my protection for that??? A $10 power strip - and honestly, as long as I do a quick check with the outlet tester, I'm confident that I'll have no troubles...

I have no reason to lie about any of that - so feel free to draw your own conclusions...


- georgestrings

Someone should create an outlet adaptor that automatically corrects the polarity. Maybe build it into a power bar.. That's probably the most common miswiring problem.

Nothing you can do about a broken ground of course.

BTW, you should see it on 3 phase.

-Nick

 

[bassadicct]

modulusman brings up a very good point. as a low voltage contractor and installer i can tell you that unless you are willing to spend at LEAST $300 you are waisting money. however if youare not willing to spend the dough then you are inserious danger of F$(%!#& up your gear. A good power conditioner will not only protect you but improve your tone exponentially. I use one of Invalid Link Removed which can set you back about $1300 but worth every penny if your stuff is worth at least that much.

 

[Arx]

modulusman brings up a very good point. as a low voltage contractor and installer i can tell you that unless you are willing to spend at LEAST $300 you are waisting money. however if youare not willing to spend the dough then you are inserious danger of F$(%!#& up your gear. A good power conditioner will not only protect you but improve your tone exponentially. I use one of Invalid Link Removed which can set you back about $1300 but worth every penny if your stuff is worth at least that much.

I don't think that's worth it. It's a big choke.
If you have noise problems it will likely help.

It won't improve your tone unless you're having some pretty serious noise problems (maybe due to a really badly designed amp with improper rf filtering)

Their isolation transformer (for which they misappropriate the name Pole Pig) may be useful.

With an isolation transformer you can use a miswired outlet safely, and you don't really need to worry about ground loops and whatnot.

Again though, hardly a necessity.

There's no magic here. An outlet in a dive bar isn't any more dangerous to your equipment than any other outlet, assuming it's wired correctly.

Overloading circuits and having the lights go off in the middle of your show is a different story, but there's NO piece of gear that's going to save you there.

-Nick