Double Bass Playing in tune - validation?

[Andy Mopley]

Hi all
I want to work on this in the coming weeks and seeking some opinions/help please.
I know there are pros and cons on things like using drones, but my question is not so much about this as it is about how do you validate progress when addressing playing in tune, if not playing live? I suppose playing along with records is one way, but that is relative to what I may hear (rightly or wrongly). Is another way, for example, to sing a pitch, play it, and THEN verify against a tuner and plot progress to keep track of the number of times the right note is hit? Are there others that people have used? Is playing along with others the ultimate way to know?
As they say "there is one way to play a note in tune, and countless ways to play it out of tune!" so keen to know how you've managed to track your progress.
Regards to all

 

[Ketbass]

I have Zoom H4 digital recorder I sometimes use when my brain and fingers aren’t together, or you could just use an iPhone. I find using a recorder with some backing tracks and then going back to listen to it is super useful both for intonation and timing.

 

[damonsmith]

The two most potent things I have found are all twelve scales around the circle of 5ths or 4ths with a drone + Simandl and no drone - daily.
There is a tricky territory with what in tune is going to mean. So often it is more about trusting yourself than what you work on. Doubt is one of the biggest factors for poor intonation. Just getting interested in the double bass requires advanced hearing, so that is a good place to start trusting yourself.
What is "in tune" to your chromatic tuner and what note brings a guitar & upright piano (for example) together may vary greatly.
With drones, rather than thinking about drilling exact frequencies into your ears think about as an exercise in precision. Do the work and trust yourself.

 

[User3743463]

I couldn’t agree more with Damon Smith. Arpeggios, starting low and high, Scales, up and down, down and up. In the the cycle of ascending fourths, always by ear, always in tempo. Slide imperceptibly and inaudibly into the centre of the next root note. Keep on doing it, it works. It is not even a chore, it’s a beautiful thing to do.

 

[Mark_T]

I used to drone the tonic. Another teacher suggested droning the dominant. My current teacher suggested droning the mediant (3rd), and that has actually been really really helpful. I actually use all three (independently) from time to time. I use drones throughout my practice session, although I also turn them off from time to time and record or just use my ear.

I also suggest watching/feeling for sympathetic vibrations on the string and also checking notes with double stops (ie, double-stop notes that come in sequence but on different strings, or double-stop a note with an adjacent string).

 

[g-dude]

I also suggest watching/feeling for sympathetic vibrations on the string and also checking notes with double stops (ie, double-stop notes that come in sequence but on different strings, or double-stop a note with an adjacent string).

The sympathetic vibration you get is probably one of the coolest things about the upright.

It’s funny how on a bass guitar, you go out of your way to avoid any strings just ringing on their own, but yet on the upright it’s a joy when you notice the sympathetic vibration taking place.

 

[bherman]

The two most potent things I have found are all twelve scales around the circle of 5ths or 4ths with a drone + Simandl and no drone - daily.
There is a tricky territory with what in tune is going to mean. So often it is more about trusting yourself than what you work on. Doubt is one of the biggest factors for poor intonation. Just getting interested in the double bass requires advanced hearing, so that is a good place to start trusting yourself.
What is "in tune" to your chromatic tuner and what note brings a guitar & upright piano (for example) together may vary greatly.
With drones, rather than thinking about drilling exact frequencies into your ears think about as an exercise in precision. Do the work and trust yourself.

Damon, a logistics question. How do you manage teeing up 12 different drones? Seems like a lot of iPhone fiddling. Any apps you’d recommend?

 

[User3743463]

I really don’t like drones, like Damon said trust your ears. This has to come from within you, it’s about feeling the pitch and relative pitch resonate within you as it happens. The repetitive cycle of ascending fourths practice takes you away from the simplistic approach of relating to a single pitch (drone). It also encourages the necessary hand adjustments that have to be made in different positions. I practice this endlessly over the entire fingerboard and it is a never ending enjoyable task. Perfection is not achievable but trust in my work means that I can accept my best efforts. And really no iPhone apps, no tuners, they don’t help. A short cut that is a dead end. A digital sound source is really unhelpful in my experience and I would much rather depend on my own ears imperfect as they are.

 

[damonsmith]

Damon, a logistics question. How do you manage teeing up 12 different drones? Seems like a lot of iPhone fiddling. Any apps you’d recommend?

I used the cello drone tool through my stereo with my touch screen laptop.
Drone Tone Tool
@PaulCannon warns against it due to the vibrato and he is right, but I am lazy and it is too easy.

I really don’t like drones,

I used to feel that way, then Lauren Pierce said she used drones so I use drones now!

 

[jj.833]

In my experience any practice routine gets worn in time. My best general way to improve intonation is scales. I play them with a drone for a few days. Then, when I feel I'm not progressing much, I play them without drone for a time. I also play arpeggios, some classic repertoire with bow, some jazz walking plucked. All these methods add most when I switch regularly from one to the other. The amount of time I spend on one excersise differs, but I try not to stay on one excersise for too long. Did I learn something new today? If not, I change the excersise.
As for objective judgement, I record myself.

 

[damonsmith]

As far as validation, it will likely be people asking you to play! There are generally a few was to play a note in tune in any given situation or we'd keep very few instruments around and just all play electronic keyboards.

Hi all
I want to work on this in the coming weeks and seeking some opinions/help please.
I know there are pros and cons on things like using drones, but my question is not so much about this as it is about how do you validate progress when addressing playing in tune, if not playing live? I suppose playing along with records is one way, but that is relative to what I may hear (rightly or wrongly). Is another way, for example, to sing a pitch, play it, and THEN verify against a tuner and plot progress to keep track of the number of times the right note is hit? Are there others that people have used? Is playing along with others the ultimate way to know?
As they say "there is one way to play a note in tune, and countless ways to play it out of tune!" so keen to know how you've managed to track your progress.
Regards to all

 

[David Potts]

Take, for example, listening to the cacophony of the orchestra tuning. Sometimes you cannot believe that we can all play in tune together afterwards !! IMO the more experienced you and your colleagues are the easier it is to maintain good stable pitch and relative intonation. The upper woodwinds in an orchestra are usually pretty accurate and stable in pitch that form an anchor but differences in unison pitch and timing within your section can niggle at you. Don't let this destroy the confidence you can build at home by the way you practice but make sure that you can also adjust your pitch relative to others, not just declare you are right and they are wrong. They too have sat at home practicing scales and arpeggios.

At risk of droning on (ha ha) I still believe in the value of carefully hearing a scale as two identical tetra chords - Tone, tone, half tone (and) Tone, tone , half tone or 1 2 3 4 (pause) 5 6 7 8. The first four notes of one Major scale are the same as the last four notes of another, eg F and Bflat. Build the D one octave scale and carefully pull apart the intervals in each tetrachord. Or test the intervals by playing D-E, D-Fsharp, D-G, D-A, D-b, D-Csharp, D-D. When you are happy with D switch the whole structure to a different starting note and rebuild it carefully. Try other scales with open strings or it could be, say, E flat next door then something like B. Build trust in your mind to predict the pitch of each note in the scale when you hear and remember the tonic. Also work on scales in thirds, fourths, fifths, etc. I liken prehearing pitch to aiming darts at a dart board or a fine line on the wall.

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

I’ve done a little work with drones and go back to them occasionally, but they have never really felt particularly helpful to me.

The most helpful thing for me has been dedicated ear training both away from the bass with a solfège book (and singing lullabies to me kids) and at the bass with a particular singing exercise that I was taught.

Other than that I find putting my focus on laying some really great touch on each note helps me play with better pitch, tone, and nuance. It also points out which areas of the bass I need to work on — if I can’t put the right touch on a note, if I’m just smashing it down, then it needs work.

Lastly, zeroing in my bow placements does a similar thing. If the bow is in the right spot it seems like the note will almost play itself and the intonation is right on. I can’t explain that one though.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Thanks all - much like Dogfightgiggle above states, drones never quite feel right to me - but again, a matter of personal preference. I notice I'm better at playing along (for example Simandl Etudes) where intonation is somewhat clearer to my ears. A bit like the midi files Lauren mentiones in the video.
And to Damien's point, agree, the less the condutor has to focus on a section's intonation, the greater the chance of one not being single out!!
Thanks again everyone.

 

[Cricket55]

I like the Tunable app. You can watch it, of course, but you can also set it to varying degrees of “in-tune-ness,” record your practice, and see what percentage of the time you were in tune. You can track your progress.

It’s not expensive either. I think it might be $7.99? Does a bunch of other things too… metronome, tone generator. One more tool for the toolbox, anyway.

 

[damonsmith]

Thanks all - much like Dogfightgiggle above states, drones never quite feel right to me - but again, a matter of personal preference.

If playing scales with the root or one of the other pitches droning does not feel right to you then that is exactly where you need to be until it does. I wouldn't really say it is a matter of preference - that would be true once you make it "feel right".

 

[oliebrice]

It's far from a quick fix, but I can't reccomend highly enough working through W.A Mathieu's book 'harmonic experience'. It deals in amazing depth and detail with how to hear, feel and experience intonation, in a way that massively changed my perception, among the best books on music I've ever read

 

[Bruce Calin]

Several years ago there was a post about the "Green Room" exercise which I have found to be very useful with students and members of my bass section. It works best with two players(I've never tried it with a recording, although that supposedly is possible) and requires very close listening to each other and adjusting pitch and rhythm accordingly. It would be an interesting experiment to try it with more players at one time or even a whole bass section. I think the original post was something like "An afternoon with Dennis Irwin"- worth checking out, I think.

 

[notabene]

I recently wrote this incredibly boring "piece". However, for me, it has been the best method of getting better intonation. Going around in chordal forths seems, for me, to be the most brainless way to get all the "notes". And, if I space out and lose my place , it helps my ear by hitting a consonant tone and realizing it is tonic, third, or fifth, quickly. And... you can play scales, tones, triads, or melodies against this brainless accompaniement. I hope someone else may find value here (hear).

Note bene