Playing note for note.

[hernameisrio]

Oh, and I never said good bass playing has anything to do with selling out the Garden, but usually when your band sucks and you can't play (including the bassist), you don't tend to get gigs there. I mean, I could be wrong, but that's just a theory I have. Anyone else in this forum can feel free to correct me.

 

[lfmn16]

Oh, and I never said good bass playing has anything to do with selling out the Garden, but usually when your band sucks and you can't play (including the bassist), you don't tend to get gigs there. I mean, I could be wrong, but that's just a theory I have. Anyone else in this forum can feel free to correct me.

I thought we were going to drop it? Since we're not going to drop it, you are correct about this, but it has nothing to do with my original comment. You've now gone from "average to good bass players" to "bass players that can't play" in an attempt to prove your point. I don't think anyone ever said that if your band sucks and you can't play you will still be successful.

Just some history in case you came in the middle. This whole side discussion started when I said, "First of all, 99% of the bass players on CDs are no better than the average bass player you hear in a club; that's where most of them came from." This was in response to people who implied that we should play note for note because the players on CD are so much better than the rest of us.

Now after a little back and forth with Munjibunga he convinced me of the error of my ways and I realize that the 99% number is an exaggeration, but I still think that you could take most reasonably good bass players out of reasonably good club bands and stick them in most bands you hear on the radio and no one would know the difference. It's just an opinion from some guy on the internet with no statistics to back it up but 41 years of being a know-it-all.

 

[hernameisrio]

Hey, I'm sorry if I sounded kinda snotty, I'm just not in the best mood right now and I guess it's showing a bit. I understand where you're coming from but so much of this is subjective, after all...hence the original note-for-note debate! It did get me thinking that it would be an interesting study...get ahold of the original studio recordings of some truly great bands (not sure who, offhand, but we'd establish some kind of standard via listener surveys, perhaps), mute the bass tracks, overdub the bass tracks with any number of average/good bassists (again, I don't know how we'd determine this, it's just hypothetical!)...then mix it up and see if the average listener could tell the difference. I guess sometimes I forget that not everybody else knows as much about music as people like us do, or understands what it takes to make an album in a studio, etc. I have a bad habit of forgetting about the "average" consumer and assuming that they're on the same page as me, when in fact they probably aren't! (Fieldy is a case in point, ha ha!)

To get back to the original topic, it is interesting to me how certain bass lines have become so completely essential to certain songs, that playing anything BUT note-for-note would be almost blasphemous. Now there's a question...how does a song achieve that level of notoriety?

 

[klokker]

What is even worse is when the musicians don't have the skills to do justice to the original, so they crudely hack it up in their own "style" (read: "limited skills version"), in the name of "art." What a load of crap.

I didn't read every post, but this is my experience as well. There are people whose "improvements" really are that, but I haven't found them yet in the musical world I run in (granted its not musical elite). Plus, I've learned that if I play it pretty much like the recording people like it, my band likes it, I like it and have a good time.

Plus, the stuff I've tried to come up with on my own usually sounds bad, or feels awkward. There is a lot that goes into a good bassline that I haven't figured out yet.

 

[Munjibunga]

I thought we were going to drop it? Since we're not going to drop it, you are correct about this, but it has nothing to do with my original comment. You've now gone from "average to good bass players" to "bass players that can't play" in an attempt to prove your point. I don't think anyone ever said that if your band sucks and you can't play you will still be successful.

Just some history in case you came in the middle. This whole side discussion started when I said, "First of all, 99% of the bass players on CDs are no better than the average bass player you hear in a club; that's where most of them came from." This was in response to people who implied that we should play note for note because the players on CD are so much better than the rest of us.

Now after a little back and forth with Munjibunga he convinced me of the error of my ways and I realize that the 99% number is an exaggeration, but I still think that you could take most reasonably good bass players out of reasonably good club bands and stick them in most bands you hear on the radio and no one would know the difference. It's just an opinion from some guy on the internet with no statistics to back it up but 41 years of being a know-it-all.

Did I get you down to 98%? Anyway, I do know several local club players who are probably better than many who are on CDs. One of them is James East, Nathan's brother. Another is Rod Ratelle. Then you've got a trillion guys like me who are journeymen at best. OK, maybe only a billion.

 

[hernameisrio]

Clearly the only solution to all of this is to start a bass-only supergroup called 98%, or something. Okay, I'm going to bed now, I swear!

 

[winstonthecat]

IMO, there are some great bassists and basslines that can't be mimiced. Take Jamerson for example. That guy was a stream of consciousness player who just instinctively played the right notes at the right time with an amazing feel, and incredible touch. How the heck am I gonna cop Jamerson note for note? I can get an old P-bass, throw some 10 year old LaBella flats on them, install the foam mute, and practice for weeks using the transcriptions of his exact bassline and still not get it "note-for-note". The main reason is because I'm not Jamerson. The best I will get is me doing a good job of copping Jamerson. Notes include time, and feel is hard to transcribe feel. I'm confident I can nail the notes, and some of the time, but the feel is different. I can come close, but I won't sound just like Jamerson, because I'm not Jamerson. But that won't stop me from playing a Motown tune and having people enjoy it.

Well said. My band plays "What's Going On", and I can get close, but haven't been able to pull out a complete note-for-note version. But we get the feel and groove down, and the audience enjoys it, so I leave it at that and work on other tunes.

 

[lfmn16]

Hey, I'm sorry if I sounded kinda snotty, I'm just not in the best mood right now and I guess it's showing a bit. I understand where you're coming from but so much of this is subjective, after all...hence the original note-for-note debate! It did get me thinking that it would be an interesting study...get ahold of the original studio recordings of some truly great bands (not sure who, offhand, but we'd establish some kind of standard via listener surveys, perhaps), mute the bass tracks, overdub the bass tracks with any number of average/good bassists (again, I don't know how we'd determine this, it's just hypothetical!)...then mix it up and see if the average listener could tell the difference. I guess sometimes I forget that not everybody else knows as much about music as people like us do, or understands what it takes to make an album in a studio, etc. I have a bad habit of forgetting about the "average" consumer and assuming that they're on the same page as me, when in fact they probably aren't! (Fieldy is a case in point, ha ha!)

To get back to the original topic, it is interesting to me how certain bass lines have become so completely essential to certain songs, that playing anything BUT note-for-note would be almost blasphemous. Now there's a question...how does a song achieve that level of notoriety?

No problem. I get my hackles up sometimes too, but I don't thing there is anything wrong with a civil disagreement, even when it gets spirited!

 

[lfmn16]

Did I get you down to 98%? Anyway, I do know several local club players who are probably better than many who are on CDs. One of them is James East, Nathan's brother. Another is Rod Ratelle. Then you've got a trillion guys like me who are journeymen at best. OK, maybe only a billion.

I don't want to give a percentage since as you probably know, 95.6% of all statistics are made up.

 

[steven1068]

I don't want to give a percentage since as you probably know, 95.6% of all statistics are made up.

And 82.4 % of people believe them whether they're accurate statistics or not

 

[Munjibunga]

I don't want to give a percentage since as you probably know, 95.6% of all statistics are made up.

Made-up statistics are valid if they are believable.

 

[hrodbert696]

Made-up statistics are valid if they are believable.

I believe 62.7% of this statement.

 

[DWBass]

Wow, didn't think this thread would just keep going and going and......................


An observation in my local scene: In my area, there are a ton of really really good bass players! I mean 'really good'! And quite often I'll hear them just butchering a song for the sake of 'creativity'! No doubt, there are those who dig it but I'm one who doesn't!

Oh and lfmn16, which version of Whitesnake? Because Uriah Duffy was far from average! Sorry, I had to go there!

 

[DWBass]

This is my experience as well.

And, sadly, many bands have fooled themselves into thinking they have somehow improved on the original, when in fact they have butchered it.

Says who? The audiences and venue owners and managers.

What is even worse is when the musicians don't have the skills to do justice to the original, so they crudely hack it up in their own "style" (read: "limited skills version"), in the name of "art." What a load of crap.

For too many bands, this is just a cop out. They can't do faithful versions, so they mask their shortcomings with the sour grapes routine. "We don't want to sound like the original." Well, okay, but do you want to sound like shite? Because that's where you are...

And we sit around here and talk about why live music is so under-appreciated and de-valued. Maybe there are just too many hacks out there with too many justifications.

Yes! My experience comes from 40 years of real world gigging and recording! Also most of my gigging experience is in Top40 agent booked level bands. Most agents are knowledgable and will surely tell you when to cut out all that 'creativity' and just play the damn music! Been there, done that!

Last Top40 band I was in we had this drummer who just had to play 'his way' or we're stiffling his 'creativity'! Boy did he bitch and moan! Well, the agent came to a show once and pulled me to the side and asked me "hey, wassup with your drummer?" I answered "dunno, he won't stop playing like that!". She said 'well, tell him to cut it out or I'm not gonna book any more gigs for you"! He's no longer in that band!

I guess at bar and club gigs, you can get away with that a bit more! I don't have an issue with being creative but stop butchering songs for the sake of it! Again, I'm not a note for note guy but I at least learn the song the way it is first and then do my thing 'tastefully'!

Not note for note but I did it my way. Invalid Link Removed

This is from a rehearsal some years back! Invalid Link Removed

 

[lfmn16]

Oh and lfmn16, which version of Whitesnake? Because Uriah Duffy was far from average! Sorry, I had to go there!

Any version. I don't know why everyone misses average to GOOD. It's like if you don't say great people think you mean bad. You can get pretty far from average without hitting great. These are just my opinions, not official ratings sanctioned by a vote of all bass players in the world.

 

[lfmn16]

Made-up statistics are valid if they are believable.

78.5% of people agree with that statement.

 

[DWBass]

Any version. I don't know why everyone misses average to GOOD. It's like if you don't say great people think you mean bad. You can get pretty far from average without hitting great. These are just my opinions, not official ratings sanctioned by a vote of all bass players in the world.

Well, UDawgy is far from just 'GOOD' too! Just sayin'!

Gotta say, some of y'all are just way over the top with this! By the way, I'd love to hear some y'alls 'creativity!

 

[Turock]

Not note for note but I did it my way. Invalid Link Removed

That was nice man; good, solid playing. I enjoyed it.

 

[Cristo]

I'll add something else to this. How many performers play their OWN lines from the recording note-for-note when they play it live? I'd say not that many.

It can take an inordinate amount of time to pick out every little nuance of a part, and then practice it over and over to get it where you remember and execute every detail. Is this really worth it for a cover band? Is the audience going to notice you played 2 8th notes instead of one 1/4 note in the second verse of Brown Eyed Girl?


It all comes down to how close enough is good enough. There is no correct answer to this, other than the whole band must be in reasonablly close agreement.

 

[lfmn16]

Well, UDawgy is far from just 'GOOD' too! Just sayin'!

I agree - that you're just sayin' and sayin' don't make it so. It would be hard to think of many bass players where there aren't some that think they are great and some that think they are average to good.