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Playing note for note.
- Thread starter Ric5
- Start date
In my experience, there's quite an appreciation for 60's and 70's covers among 20-somethings, but not as much for 80's. Then more for 90's.
I've never understood the "cover it up with lots of distortion" comment.
When playing distorted guitar or bass, I find that I have to be more careful, not less. For me, distortion has always highlighted sloppiness, not hidden it. Sloppy playing with overdrive typically results in terrible noises for me. Or it just gets muddy and sounds bad.
I typically start learning a new song note for note. Then after I've learned it, I see if there is anything I can add that would make the song more interesting or distinctive. I usually learn the rules first, then decide when and how to break them.
Also, when improvising, I'm playing what I already know, within my own capabilities. If I learn a new song note for note, I may be learning something new, beyond my own limitations.
Also, when improvising, I'm playing what I already know, within my own capabilities. If I learn a new song note for note, I may be learning something new, beyond my own limitations.
Try to learn Geddy Lee's bass lines during the guitar solo in Freewill note-by-note. Close to impossible, it's doable but anyone playing that note by note would most likely sound robotic.
IME, if you understand why the bassist is doing whatever they're doing on the record and you have a good feel for the style the exact notes are immaterial.
There are a lot of different ways to look at this. Assuming that by cover we mean playing other artists' songs without changing enough to "make it our own," then here are my thoughts.
If you are playing in a cover band, I don't think it necessary to play note-for-note as on a recording, but you should remain faithful to the original. By faithful I mean that people recognize it as the song as recorded even if the notes are not exactly the same. IOW, if the original bassist is playing some sort of groovy pattern, but you are string riding and just playing eigth notes, then you, obviously, are not being faithful to the original. But if you are essentially playing the pattern correctly with maybe minor changes to fills and what not, I don't see what the problem is.
I was watching an interview with John Paul Jones a few months ago and he said, "I never play a song the same way twice." I doubt any of us would call JPJ out for playing "The Lemon Song" somewhat different than what was on the record, if we could even recognize that he had done so at all. To me, that statement is telling. IMO, groove and feel are more important than rote memorization. So long as the player if "faithful" to the song, all is well.
On the other side of the coin, I will give one good reason to go ahead and try to learn note-for-note even if you don't intend to play it that way live. It is a GREAT learning tool. By doing so, you learn all kinds of cool nuances such as fills and runs that you can add to your own style. I have found all kinds of cool things in even the simplest songs that I never really heard the bass player doing when just casually lisening to a song. Taking the time to do so will definitely help your own bass playing.
Rock on!
If you are playing in a cover band, I don't think it necessary to play note-for-note as on a recording, but you should remain faithful to the original. By faithful I mean that people recognize it as the song as recorded even if the notes are not exactly the same. IOW, if the original bassist is playing some sort of groovy pattern, but you are string riding and just playing eigth notes, then you, obviously, are not being faithful to the original. But if you are essentially playing the pattern correctly with maybe minor changes to fills and what not, I don't see what the problem is.
I was watching an interview with John Paul Jones a few months ago and he said, "I never play a song the same way twice." I doubt any of us would call JPJ out for playing "The Lemon Song" somewhat different than what was on the record, if we could even recognize that he had done so at all. To me, that statement is telling. IMO, groove and feel are more important than rote memorization. So long as the player if "faithful" to the song, all is well.
On the other side of the coin, I will give one good reason to go ahead and try to learn note-for-note even if you don't intend to play it that way live. It is a GREAT learning tool. By doing so, you learn all kinds of cool nuances such as fills and runs that you can add to your own style. I have found all kinds of cool things in even the simplest songs that I never really heard the bass player doing when just casually lisening to a song. Taking the time to do so will definitely help your own bass playing.
Rock on!
Here is an interesting example to what we are discussing. The Govt Mule Deepest End Concert and associated CD complete with a collection of arguably the best bass players in the world. All of them are doing "covers" of the late Allen Woody's bass lines with the original band (except Jack Casady on Voodoo Child cause he played the original version with Hendrix). They cover Woody's part in essence but each added something from himself to the part.
Here's a couple for the "not note-for-note" crowd.
Dirty Loops Baby (Justin Bieber cover) - YouTube
Just Dance - (Lady GaGa Cover ) - YouTube
Dirty Loops Baby (Justin Bieber cover) - YouTube
Just Dance - (Lady GaGa Cover ) - YouTube
Thanks for those. Still not my cup of tea but a great example of why it's not necessary to worry about what the original sounds like.
I'm currently in the process of figuring out how far to take this. My latest gig is a Bowie tribute band, there is SO much recorded versions of his material that it can drive you nuts trying to pick and choose. By default we are going by the recorded version, but considering that Trevor Bolder, Herbie Flowers, George Murray, Willie Weeks, Doug Rausch, Gail Ann Dorsey, Carmine Rojas have all had their takes on many different songs, it becomes a real "I'm not worthy" moment real quick.
case in point: "Space Oddity" I think we can safely say that besides the original Herbie Flowers bass line, no one else who has played that song with Bowie has anything remotely like it.
I've been working on the transcription (from guitar player a few years back) and as doggedly as I try to replicate, it does not really sound like it. My sense of time is off, and my tone definitely is off. Not to mention my "improvs/mistakes". But I think it's a great line and I do want to play as close as possible. But even I know it's "close".
My drummer (who's a big Bowie fan) and I have had discussions about this, he does not see it necessary to replicate it and has even told me to try to play the Trevor Bolder part from the "Ziggy" movie. He's actually varying bank and forth between the studio version drum part and the drum part from the 1980 Floor show where the drummer was Anysley Dunbar (one of his fave drummers)!!
Yes we all have bootlegs and have studied the different version. this is a perfect example of "where do we stop"?
However at this point, I am pretty much playing the part as close as possible because I think it's an amazing bass line, rhythmically and harmonically and even the ending dissonant parts are cool. So I'm winning this one
But I don't really expect the audience to know that "wow that dude is rockin' the Flowers part and not the bombastic bolder bass line". But I'm satisfied as a musician and fan.
YMMV.
Edited to add: As for the other songs, I am somewhat close to the recorded versions but not necessarily the definitive recorded version. ie: in "Changes" I actually nick BOTH George Murray's line from the live version and Gail Ann Dorsey's improv parts from the Reality DVD. Considering that they were not on the original studio version, my take is a n-th generation hybrid.
case in point: "Space Oddity" I think we can safely say that besides the original Herbie Flowers bass line, no one else who has played that song with Bowie has anything remotely like it.
I've been working on the transcription (from guitar player a few years back) and as doggedly as I try to replicate, it does not really sound like it. My sense of time is off, and my tone definitely is off. Not to mention my "improvs/mistakes". But I think it's a great line and I do want to play as close as possible. But even I know it's "close".
My drummer (who's a big Bowie fan) and I have had discussions about this, he does not see it necessary to replicate it and has even told me to try to play the Trevor Bolder part from the "Ziggy" movie. He's actually varying bank and forth between the studio version drum part and the drum part from the 1980 Floor show where the drummer was Anysley Dunbar (one of his fave drummers)!!
Yes we all have bootlegs and have studied the different version. this is a perfect example of "where do we stop"?
However at this point, I am pretty much playing the part as close as possible because I think it's an amazing bass line, rhythmically and harmonically and even the ending dissonant parts are cool. So I'm winning this one
But I don't really expect the audience to know that "wow that dude is rockin' the Flowers part and not the bombastic bolder bass line". But I'm satisfied as a musician and fan.
YMMV.
Edited to add: As for the other songs, I am somewhat close to the recorded versions but not necessarily the definitive recorded version. ie: in "Changes" I actually nick BOTH George Murray's line from the live version and Gail Ann Dorsey's improv parts from the Reality DVD. Considering that they were not on the original studio version, my take is a n-th generation hybrid.
I can nail the note-for-note covers all day long. I just can't get the fade-out at the end of the recordings to match perfectly.
Point taken. I guess I should rephrase that by replacing "distortion" with "volume".
Thongs.....on a baritone..... that image
Not something I'm really interested in seeing personally...
Randy
It is absolutely GREAT ear training trying to learn a bass line note for note. I shoot for that driving to work and back.
If you listen closely, they often don't play every chorus or verse the same. Also they may put little fills in here and there, which vary.
Often those little fills are tasty as hell, and completely overlooked if you hack your way through one chorus/one verse playing along with the record with your bass up so loud you can't really hear what the original bass player is playing. People then take that one approximation of one verse/chorus out of the song and play that 'note for note' through every verse/chorus. Often you'll find they do stuff you wouldn't have thought of on your own.
There's nothing wrong with stealing from the best studio musicians and adding their licks to your repertoire. Its a great starting point for doing the song.
Keep in mind, in a concert, the original band plays their cover differently. Live versions usually have more energy, played a little faster, rearranged, etc.
You need to get the feel and groove of the song right, lock with the drummer, play appropriate lines for the song, then you can put in anything you want and not too many are going to care.
"Creativity" is usually a problem when people play something that's familiar to them rather than appropriate to the song.
That'll get you through 90% of popular songs just fine. Note for note works just as well.
10% of the songs out there have signature bass lines that really need to be done right. Love Shack, Billie Jean, I Wish.
Should also point out that you can play all the right notes and suck, totally lack the feel and energy. You need to know where the beat is precisely, so when you anticipate or lay back to get the groove/feel right you don't rush, slow down the tempos.
Randy
If you listen closely, they often don't play every chorus or verse the same. Also they may put little fills in here and there, which vary.
Often those little fills are tasty as hell, and completely overlooked if you hack your way through one chorus/one verse playing along with the record with your bass up so loud you can't really hear what the original bass player is playing. People then take that one approximation of one verse/chorus out of the song and play that 'note for note' through every verse/chorus. Often you'll find they do stuff you wouldn't have thought of on your own.
There's nothing wrong with stealing from the best studio musicians and adding their licks to your repertoire. Its a great starting point for doing the song.
Keep in mind, in a concert, the original band plays their cover differently. Live versions usually have more energy, played a little faster, rearranged, etc.
You need to get the feel and groove of the song right, lock with the drummer, play appropriate lines for the song, then you can put in anything you want and not too many are going to care.
"Creativity" is usually a problem when people play something that's familiar to them rather than appropriate to the song.
That'll get you through 90% of popular songs just fine. Note for note works just as well.
10% of the songs out there have signature bass lines that really need to be done right. Love Shack, Billie Jean, I Wish.
Should also point out that you can play all the right notes and suck, totally lack the feel and energy. You need to know where the beat is precisely, so when you anticipate or lay back to get the groove/feel right you don't rush, slow down the tempos.
Randy
Note for Note = BORING!
I really don't understand people at concerts that say, "That was great! It sounded just like the album!" Why bother going to a concert if you think a good concert is a note for note reproduction of the album. Hell, go to a hip-hop concert where 90% of what you hear is pre-recorded, if that floats your boat. I much rather go to a concert and see/hear what the musicians do with the song at that moment. That is what makes it special; it's magic.
Flame shields are up. Flame away...
I really don't understand people at concerts that say, "That was great! It sounded just like the album!" Why bother going to a concert if you think a good concert is a note for note reproduction of the album. Hell, go to a hip-hop concert where 90% of what you hear is pre-recorded, if that floats your boat. I much rather go to a concert and see/hear what the musicians do with the song at that moment. That is what makes it special; it's magic.
Flame shields are up. Flame away...
^ THIS!
I'm of the opinion that even many original recordings have little phrasings & fills that are "in the moment". If a bass player phrases something that is spontaneous (as he feels it at any take), WHY would I want to play what HE is feeling? I'm not going to make myself crazy wondering if the audience is going to judge my ability on whether or not I can reproduce a carbon copy of everything I'm covering. It's MY feel, & I hope that my audience wants to hear my take of the song.
B.
I'm in a three piece instrumental cover band. It is pretty tough to play note for note for any vocal tune. I try to learn the tune as close to the original and the guitarist plays the vocal part and guitar part.
Still, we need to fill in the song so it flows. We have been covering a Gaga tune and the crowd seems to enjoy it.
We always try to get close to the original but arrange the tune to fit our band.
Still, we need to fill in the song so it flows. We have been covering a Gaga tune and the crowd seems to enjoy it.
We always try to get close to the original but arrange the tune to fit our band.
You're still playing music if you play note for note...
If you listen to two bassists playing note for note, one is average and the other is advanced, you can easily tell the difference. It's those little itty bitty differences in their timing.
The bassist role in pop or classic rock is (almost always) not to impress anyone, it's to lay down a solid foundation. Right?
It's the groove, right?
I'm just surprised about all this discussions about being creative in a cover band playing pop music? To me it's a craft more than an art, we are talking cover bands.
I haven't read all the posts but I saw mentioned Mustang Sally, CCR, America and the like. Great material to get jobs, pop and classic rock and country, but...
Seriously? You just got to know the chords and the groove and have the song in your head and know any of the signature lines. Most of the time you don't have to go to the trouble of playing note for note if you have a good ear. The really good players sound so good that you think they're playing note for note even when they're not.
I mean does it really matter much if you play over a dominant 7th chord a 1 3 5 6 1 6 5 3 vs. 1 3 5 6 b7 6 5 3...?
And playing variations over pop songs that fit... doesn't exactly make you Joe Creative.
Now if you play some other genre like jazz and do it really well (I wish I could), well that's a different story.
If you listen to two bassists playing note for note, one is average and the other is advanced, you can easily tell the difference. It's those little itty bitty differences in their timing.
The bassist role in pop or classic rock is (almost always) not to impress anyone, it's to lay down a solid foundation. Right?
It's the groove, right?
I'm just surprised about all this discussions about being creative in a cover band playing pop music? To me it's a craft more than an art, we are talking cover bands.
I haven't read all the posts but I saw mentioned Mustang Sally, CCR, America and the like. Great material to get jobs, pop and classic rock and country, but...
Seriously? You just got to know the chords and the groove and have the song in your head and know any of the signature lines. Most of the time you don't have to go to the trouble of playing note for note if you have a good ear. The really good players sound so good that you think they're playing note for note even when they're not.
I mean does it really matter much if you play over a dominant 7th chord a 1 3 5 6 1 6 5 3 vs. 1 3 5 6 b7 6 5 3...?
And playing variations over pop songs that fit... doesn't exactly make you Joe Creative.
Now if you play some other genre like jazz and do it really well (I wish I could), well that's a different story.
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