Double Bass Playing with a large band

[g-dude]

Okay, so none of the other forums felt like the right place for this, so here goes.

I'll be playing with a large band - think outdoor concerts at the local bandshell. The band consists of brass, woodwinds, percussion -- the usual.

And now me on bass.

The music seems to be a mixture of everything - there are some popular songs that have been rearranged, big band jazz stuff, patriotic music, etc.

Of course, I haven't played with an ensemble in over 30 years.

I guess my question is this: if it isn't explicitly mentioned on the sheet music (which I have yet to physically have in my hands), would you approach this as a situation to play arco, pizzicato, or whatever feels right?

I mean, Minnie the Moocher feels like it should be pizzicato - but there are a lot of other songs where it's just ??? Honestly, I feel like it'd be easier to lean heavily on playing pizzicato because it's easier to bail out of a mistake, of which there could be many.

I will be the only person playing an amplified instrument, for what it's worth.

 

[Don Hergert]

Depending on your amplification methods, you may find switching between arco and pizz difficult due to the strength of arco under amplification. That might influence your decision.

In my experience most air mics should capture both arco and pizz at about the same volume, so no quick volume/gain changes would be needed. But piezos and possibly magnetic pickups may not capture arco and pizz as evenly, and I don't know about contact mics.

I'd suggest testing your amplification with both arco and pizz pretty thoroughly before the gigs so you know what you're dealing with.

 

[Bruce Calin]

You didn't mention how comfortable you are playing arco in general, but I think you'd be better off all pizz. Especially if you're amplifying the bass, the difference in sound quality alone between the two is something you probably don't want to worry about on the fly. Pizz may not be totally appropriate for something light classical, but just the lack of additional stress would still make it the better choice IMO. As long as you're playing the right notes you're good.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Depending on your amplification methods, you may find switching between arco and pizz difficult due to the strength of arco under amplification. That might influence your decision.

In my experience most air mics should capture both arco and pizz at about the same volume, so no quick volume/gain changes would be needed. But piezos and possibly magnetic pickups may not capture arco and pizz as evenly, and I don't know about contact mics.

I'd suggest testing your amplification with both arco and pizz pretty thoroughly before the gigs so you know what you're dealing with.

I'd be wary of miking in this situation because of being in such a large group of acoustic instruments bleeding into your mike. It would be hard to have any isolation with that many horns and fiddles playing away. It would be something beyond your control that you don't need. Go pizz with the pickup and have fun. I hope you have nice weather. Don't forget the mosquito repellent.

 

[Don Hergert]

Yes, I agree, air mics in this band situation would be difficult at least. But if it's a piezo, very likely arco is going to be hugely louder than pizz, so at least volume/gain changes would be necessary, which does add to the complexity.

In this band situation though, it sounds like some of the songs just won't do well with only pizz. Arco does add a dimension that would be missed. At least if all the songs are either pizz or arco -- one or the other -- that would simplify when to make the amplification changes.

Again, testing amplification thoroughly with both arco and pizz would at least inform about the amplification details in advance of the gigs.

If it were me, I'd be doing a lot of arco practice for this gig.

 

[bherman]

Okay, so none of the other forums felt like the right place for this, so here goes.

I'll be playing with a large band - think outdoor concerts at the local bandshell. The band consists of brass, woodwinds, percussion -- the usual.

And now me on bass.

The music seems to be a mixture of everything - there are some popular songs that have been rearranged, big band jazz stuff, patriotic music, etc.

Of course, I haven't played with an ensemble in over 30 years.

I guess my question is this: if it isn't explicitly mentioned on the sheet music (which I have yet to physically have in my hands), would you approach this as a situation to play arco, pizzicato, or whatever feels right?

I mean, Minnie the Moocher feels like it should be pizzicato - but there are a lot of other songs where it's just ??? Honestly, I feel like it'd be easier to lean heavily on playing pizzicato because it's easier to bail out of a mistake, of which there could be many.

I will be the only person playing an amplified instrument, for what it's worth.

Looking at the list of music types, I think that pizz would most likely work for everything. Mixing in some arco when appropriate would be cool though. One thing to try with arco vs pizz playing through a paickup and amp that I’ve used before is to use a boost pedal, but in reverse. Set the boost level for lower than the unboosted signal, and kick the boost on (to reduce the volume) when you switch to arco. If you don’t have a boost built into your preamp (I use a Mesa Subway preamp and it has a boost), you can buy inexpensive boost pedals that work just fine - no coloration, just the ability to reduce the signal level when playing arco. Good luck, sounds like a fun opportunity!

 

[g-dude]

Thanks for all the input thus far!

I'm probably going to end up using my TT-800, and so I very well could use one channel for pizz and one for arco, which means that I'll be using my pickup vs my clip on mic.

I'd rate my arco skills as decent enough for rock music, but I'd have an issue if I had to play next to someone - we'd probably crash into each other.

 

[turf3]

So, a concert band.

The stuff that's standard concert band repertoire, play arco, think of yourself as a sort of tuba. (The parts are going to be very similar.) The stuff that's big band tunes arranged for concert band, will probably be pizz for the stretches that are walking bass. The more concert-band-y parts will still be arco (think, again, tuba).

Most of the parts will SAY arco or pizzicato.

I also question whether you need amplification. It's not usual for string basses in concert band. You're basically a sort of tuba.

 

[g-dude]

So, a concert band.

The stuff that's standard concert band repertoire, play arco, think of yourself as a sort of tuba. (The parts are going to be very similar.) The stuff that's big band tunes arranged for concert band, will probably be pizz for the stretches that are walking bass. The more concert-band-y parts will still be arco (think, again, tuba).

Most of the parts will SAY arco or pizzicato.

I also question whether you need amplification. It's not usual for string basses in concert band. You're basically a sort of tuba.

Oh, they told me that I'll need to be amplified.

You're spot on re: the tuba in that some of the parts will be tuba parts because they don't have anything else for them.

I think I'll have to play it by ear (get it?) when I see the music. I'm a little worried about the fact that we're more or less going to rehearse one night and then play the next day...and nobody is allowed to bring home music!

 

[Wasnex]

IMHO you should do what seems right for the music.

My professional career was in the Air Force band program. Much of my job was playing upright in concert band. Most of the music was notated to show when to play pizz or arco. But sometimes I played tuba parts, which involves transposing up an octave and making a decision on whether to use pizz or arco. The written articulations typically make it fairly clear. Long connected notes are arco and relatively short notes with a taper are pizz.

I also played bass guitar as appropriate. Sometimes we played pop vocals. Ideally you have a two channel preamp, so you can dial in the sound and gain level for both instruments. I also played electric upright, and I used a rack mixer with line matching transformers so I could plug into the XLR mic inputs. The rack mixer allowed me to switch quickly between all three instruments. Early in my career I used an ABY box that I made. Not ideal, but it was better than having to swap cables between two instruments.

Early in my career I did not use an amp for bowed upright. But it was not too long before the commander suggested that I use the amp all the time, which I did.

I do agree that it can be somewhat challenging to get a good arco sound through a contact pickup. But with the right equipment and a bit of time to dial in the sound, it works fine. For upright I prefer an amp that is fairly close to full-range, flat-response. This is especially true for bowing.

 

[jj.833]

I don't know whether concert band is closer to symphony or to a big band, so sorry if I'm completely off.

I play in big band and the conductor want me to play everything pizz. I came to think that it is because the deep lows from my bass provide a strong color that no other instrument can do in the band; the higher partials from arco would likely clash with the frequencies that most of the other instruments occupy. Especially with intonation issues, which are common in [not only] our band.

Sometimes I use arco, but only for rubato stuff with voices, like christmas carols.

Were I unamplified, nobody would hear me, including myself

 

[turf3]

I don't know whether concert band is closer to symphony or to a big band, so sorry if I'm completely off.

I play in big band and the conductor want me to play everything pizz. I came to think that it is because the deep lows from my bass provide a strong color that no other instrument can do in the band; the higher partials from arco would likely clash with the frequencies that most of the other instruments occupy. Especially with intonation issues, which are common in [not only] our band.

Sometimes I use arco, but only for rubato stuff with voices, like christmas carols.

Were I unamplified, nobody would hear me, including myself

In a big-band (jazz orchestra) string bass is almost 100% pizz, consistent with its role in the jazz rhythm section.

In the traditional concert band literature, the bass is playing almost the same role as the tuba or the string bass in a symphony orchestra. (Think John Philip Sousa and Percy Grainger.)

In modern concert band literature, elements of jazz and rock and roll are often used in the arrangement of popular songs. In that case, the string bass (when present) or tubas will take on more of the characteristics of the bass in the rhythm section of those styles, hence pizzicato playing.

OP, is this band short on tubas?

 

[g-dude]

In a big-band (jazz orchestra) string bass is almost 100% pizz, consistent with its role in the jazz rhythm section.

In the traditional concert band literature, the bass is playing almost the same role as the tuba or the string bass in a symphony orchestra. (Think John Philip Sousa and Percy Grainger.)

In modern concert band literature, elements of jazz and rock and roll are often used in the arrangement of popular songs. In that case, the string bass (when present) or tubas will take on more of the characteristics of the bass in the rhythm section of those styles, hence pizzicato playing.

OP, is this band short on tubas?

Honestly, I couldn’t tell you if they are short on tubas, or if it all tubas except for a dude playing the triangle.

First rehearsal is coming up, so I’ll find out then.

 

[TroyK]

If you're playing big band and they leaving things like this up to you, you're winning. I avoid these situations because everything is usually dictated to you and the jazz musician in me feels tortured by micromanagement. Talk to the leader, but enjoy your freedom.

 

[Anne Millington]

I'm a little worried about the fact that we're more or less going to rehearse one night and then play the next day...and nobody is allowed to bring home music!

Don't forget your trusty cell phone camera!

We don't let people take home our group's books either, not for copyright or proprietary reasons, but just so we always have the music on hand in case we need a sub. We definitely encourage taking photos or asking for a copy or pdf of the tricky bits.

 

[Biggbass]

a few decades ago I played bass in a large band similar to the description. it was all sheet music with a band director on a podium, brass, woodwinds, & a kit drummer. Bandshell concerts, Chamber of Commerce luncheons, etc.
I don't recall ever using a bow.

 

[turf3]

If you're playing big band and they leaving things like this up to you, you're winning. I avoid these situations because everything is usually dictated to you and the jazz musician in me feels tortured by micromanagement. Talk to the leader, but enjoy your freedom.

By all accounts it is NOT a "big band" in the Basie Ellington Herman sense; but rather a CONCERT BAND in the Eastman Winds/John Philip Sousa sense.

When OP reports back to us, we'll know for sure.

 

[turf3]

Don't forget your trusty cell phone camera!

We don't let people take home our group's books either, not for copyright or proprietary reasons, but just so we always have the music on hand in case we need a sub. We definitely encourage taking photos or asking for a copy or pdf of the tricky bits.

If you let people take the music home, it WILL be missing when needed. Pretty much zero of the concert bands and rehearsal big-bands I've been in have forbidden people from taking away the books. There was ONE big band that had no means for storage of the books and everyone had to take the book - it made a HUGE pain in the where every single time anyone would get sick, or have to go on a last minute business trip. After about 10 years of that noise I finally prevailed on the leader to get some big honkin' bins at Home Despot and have the books stored at the rehearsal hall. Presto, voila! no more missing parts!

 

[g-dude]

When OP reports back to us, we'll know for sure.

If I have a piece of music where I lay out for 32 measures, that should give me enough time to get on TalkBass to report back and still be able to miss when I'm supposed to come back in.

 

[Bruce Calin]

There's some great stuff here but without more info about your comfort level and experience or the exact pieces you're playing, I'd still recommend all pizz with a decent pickup and volume level. You will still be playing the notes with a minimum of complications. Speaking of comfort level, I'm serious about having bug spray, and if necessary music clips or clothespins and a decent stand light. It's no fun if you're swatting bugs, trying to keep the music from blowing away, and playing in the dark. I also hope you have good weather. Take it from someone who's been there many times.