Playing with show choir: when too quiet is too loud

[goran]

Hi guys and gals

First of all, let me describe my band... We are all experienced musicians, never playing too loud and always very picky about our sound. We play 50's & 60's R'n'R, soul and blues. (Link Removed)

I hope you can help me with this one. I have unusual problem. One of the best amateur choirs in region invited us to help them in their new project: Performing various R'n'R and pop hits (50's, 60's & 70's) and we will support them. Now, this sounds perfect, I never had an opportunity to do something like this and was really excited about this. Off course, per Murphy's law, something must go wrong... Choir's usual repertoire is classical & gospel music and they never performed with a band. To make things short, on second rehearsal they constantly complained that we were to loud. We kept playing more and more quiet until I had my Markbass LMII / 102HF on the same level that my little 5W Microcube would owerpower without any sweat. Drummer was obviously loudest (he is a really good drummer and I trully believe him when he said that he couldn't play any more quiet than that).

So to all of you that had experience with show choirs: is this allways like that? We can't play quieter and choir complains that we are too loud. Can it be that they are simply not used to play with a band and this genre is something new to them (they previously performed only gospel and classical music)?
I understand that they their dynamics suffers because of us, but I think they should adapt to a little.. We really can't play this quiet. It is rock'n'roll after all! (not suggesting crazy rock volume, but at least let me set master on 1 ) )

Please, any comment is welcome.

Thank you

Goran

 

[Thor]

Well, I am not a sound guy, but I have played a few musicals.

My first question is how or where rather the band sets up and plays in relation to the choir? If you are onstage and behind them, you are probably blowing them away.

On the musicals I worked on, we set up in a stage pit once,
and on another, Ohlahoma, we were set up in front of the raised stage on the floor as far stage right as possible.

Then the band sound became part of the FOH, and it worked
fine for the vocalists.

Also, is the choir amplified at all and do they use any microphones? If so, are
there foldbacks on stage?

 

[XCincyBassMan]

Has this choir EVER sung with an orchestra or combo? Or have they only sung with just a piano? I play with a HS choir (show choir, cabaret, full choir) with a grand piano, drummer, and other instruments as they want/need, etc. I play thru a Peavy Keyboard 300 with a Squier 5 w/EMGs. I have to keep it down (3-4 channel, 4-5 main) due to wooden stage and because it's not about the bass. However, what you are describing, I wonder if they have ever used amplification...

I'm not quiet sure what to tell you other that to say that this reminds me of people I have played with who have never experienced LIVE amplified performances.

Russ

 

[goran]

We are only rehearsing currently. We stand right next to the choir. Yes, I understand that this is not the best option, but it is the only one we have now.. And no, they currently don't use microphones (although I don't think it would be doable because of possible microphonic issues)

When playing, i can hear choir LOUD AND CLEAR, this is how "loud" we are. When actual performance comes, I am sure we will do as you suggested - playing in the pit or on the same stage but as far of them as possible. And choir will be amplified (so will we).


CincyBassMan: no, choir has never had any experience with orchestra or combo. I believe this is the reason for all this fuss.

 

[goran]

I forgot to say that I really appreciate your input.

 

[XCincyBassMan]

We're here to help!

I think I would suggest a "meeting of the minds" with the choir director to work out the volume issues. You may need to set-up away from the choir (I know you said that you had to set-up next to the choir) or something that you'all can agree to, to get through rehersals.

Good Luck and keep us posted on your progress!

Russ

 

[GregShadoan]

Hi There. Personally I would never attempt such a feat, without the consideration of mic(k)ing the Choir. Best case senerio is for all pieholes to have their own mic. Lots of channels I know, but nevertheless, the best case. Secound best would be to use condensor mics over the general area of the pieholes. This is tricky, and not for the novice sound person. Third best way, is for them to be isolated from the band, and be in a preformance venue designed to naturally enhance projection from the choir, while the band play VERY queitly. Have fun working that all out ) If it was easy, everyone would do it. As to your rehersal issue, thats just gonna have to: be what it is. There will be issues. No easy answer. Good luck

 

[Jim Carr]

Hi guys and gals

First of all, let me describe my band... We are all experienced musicians, never playing too loud and always very picky about our sound. We play 50's & 60's R'n'R, soul and blues. (Link Removed)

I hope you can help me with this one. I have unusual problem. One of the best amateur choirs in region invited us to help them in their new project: Performing various R'n'R and pop hits (50's, 60's & 70's) and we will support them. Now, this sounds perfect, I never had an opportunity to do something like this and was really excited about this. Off course, per Murphy's law, something must go wrong... Choir's usual repertoire is classical & gospel music and they never performed with a band. To make things short, on second rehearsal they constantly complained that we were to loud. We kept playing more and more quiet until I had my Markbass LMII / 102HF on the same level that my little 5W Microcube would owerpower without any sweat. Drummer was obviously loudest (he is a really good drummer and I trully believe him when he said that he couldn't play any more quiet than that).

So to all of you that had experience with show choirs: is this allways like that? We can't play quieter and choir complains that we are too loud. Can it be that they are simply not used to play with a band and this genre is something new to them (they previously performed only gospel and classical music)?
I understand that they their dynamics suffers because of us, but I think they should adapt to a little.. We really can't play this quiet. It is rock'n'roll after all! (not suggesting crazy rock volume, but at least let me set master on 1 ) )

Please, any comment is welcome.
Thank you

Goran

If there is pro-level sound, all can work out, otherwise, things may get ugly. I hate to say it, but all my experiences with "Show Choir" have been very disappointing (to me) musically.

 

[JimmyM]

You can talk to the choir director, but the choir is always going to win in this situation. Sorry. Your two choices, ultimately, are do the gig as they want or don't do the gig. Which proves one thing...no good deed goes unpunished.

 

[goran]

Well, unfortunately we're out. We had a meeting with their committee and it turned out they will do better without a band (it wasn't only about volume problems, there were some other things going on). There will still be piano and guitars on some songs, but no full band.

I am a little dissapointed because I was really looking forward to this and now it's not going to happpen...

But still, I appreciate all your input. Let's not consider this thread closed. Any of you that have something to say related to this subject, please join in..

Goran

 

[JustDavid]

I am a little dissapointed because I was really looking forward to this and now it's not going to happpen...

Looks like the idea was a great one, but the actualization wasn't working.

Bringing in a band & then being surprised that bands aren't very quiet seems a bit underthought to say the least. Also a choir has potential to be a whole busload of people on LSD (Lead Singer Disease).

 

[JimmyM]

Well, unfortunately we're out. We had a meeting with their committee and it turned out they will do better without a band (it wasn't only about volume problems, there were some other things going on). There will still be piano and guitars on some songs, but no full band.

I am a little dissapointed because I was really looking forward to this and now it's not going to happpen...

But still, I appreciate all your input. Let's not consider this thread closed. Any of you that have something to say related to this subject, please join in..

Goran

Their loss. Screw 'em.

 

[permagrin]

For the past couple years I have supported a 30-40 voice choir on bass guitar, in all kinds of genres, with various combinations of guitar, trap kit, small percussion, piano, keyboards. It's only 2x/year, 3-4 shows each. Mostly show tunes, and I recall we did a medley of old time rock at the last set of shows.

I usually play in blues and classic rock and understand how loud even a 3-pc (guitar/bass/drums) can get. The difference in this situation is that rather than have the band as a focal point, the choir is the focus. Most importantly you need to understand that, that the voices need to dominate and your bass/band is accompaniment. None of you should ever really stand out. The strategic side is all mental.

Tactically, you need to have a drummer with the ability to play very quietly, with barely any "extras" (fills and such) - again, he's providing a pulse and feel only. It's best for the guitar to have a "thin" tone, and think of himself as having a rhythm (vice lead) role except where leads are called for, and even those should be somewhat restrained.

As to the bass, you need to EQ to a nice round tone - flats on a P with the tone rolled all or nearly all down is a good start. To a point, you can add more low EQ than what might be called for in other situations; nice round lows will help not only the bass voices in the group but the entire choir, but your bass needs to blend and not stand out.

It is somewhat counterintuitive, but the less you stand out the better you will look. Again, this is more of a mental musical challenge than a technical one.

And BTW, while it is true that "LSD" and prima-donnaism can show up anywhere, it is ignorant to think that it is any more prominent in a choir. Quite to the contrary my experience is that, since to be effective in a multi-voice ensemble each singer learns to use his/her ears to blend his/her voice with their section, and in turn each section to the group, "LSD" is rare (and with a competent director it will be non-existent) even amongst featured singers.

It is also ignorant to think it's "their loss, screw 'em." I'm sorry you couldn't work it out because both groups lost when they failed to integrate, and in particular your band lost an opportunity to grow musically.

 

[XCincyBassMan]

^^ +1 Well said permagrin! You described it exactly!

Russ

 

[JustDavid]

I do see that both band & choir might have to adjust for the merged situation to work, & those tips for a band working with a choir sound right on. Any tips for the choir working with a band?

I'd also agree that a well-directed choir has little chance for LSD. But not for those less than well-directed. Some choirs can be filled with internal politics, & that can strongly increase your LSD odds.

 

[Jim Carr]

IMHO, Show Choir, an essentially genre-less ensemble that is the creation music publishers and H/M school choir directors, has the same innate issues as band and orchestra, but suffers from some significant added disadvantages.

Show Choir too often relies on pre-recorded accompaniment. The issues created by introducing amplified backing tracks and/or live amplified players are almost always beyond the skill and budget level of most choir directors.

Obviously there must be plenty of exceptions, but in my experience as a public school music teacher, I have never been happy with any of my direct musical contact with Show Choir. :scowl:

I love choirs, BTW.

 

[GregShadoan]

Trans-Siberian Orchestra used a good approch. Although there were only 16 singers in their choir. They had a person, sort of designated in charge of a mackie 1604VLZ board, and pretty much had it set. They handed us off a left and a right, used both for monitors, and FOH. Each singer had their own mic. I beleive we used 4 wedges, but I may be wrong on that. It worked quite well. The mixer was right there near them. That band is plenty loud. Not the classic "show band", but still a good approch for so many singers on a loud stage.

 

[JimmyM]

Trans-Siberian Orchestra used a good approch. Although there were only 16 singers in their choir. They had a person, sort of designated in charge of a mackie 1604VLZ board, and pretty much had it set. They handed us off a left and a right, used both for monitors, and FOH. Each singer had their own mic. I beleive we used 4 wedges, but I may be wrong on that. It worked quite well. The mixer was right there near them. That band is plenty loud. Not the classic "show band", but still a good approch for so many singers on a loud stage.

Hey, you worked with TSO? Know a guy named Jeff Bonny? I forget what he did, but I think it had to do with lights.

 

[Jim Carr]

Trans-Siberian Orchestra used a good approch. Although there were only 16 singers in their choir. They had a person, sort of designated in charge of a mackie 1604VLZ board, and pretty much had it set. They handed us off a left and a right, used both for monitors, and FOH. Each singer had their own mic. I beleive we used 4 wedges, but I may be wrong on that. It worked quite well. The mixer was right there near them. That band is plenty loud. Not the classic "show band", but still a good approch for so many singers on a loud stage.

+1

Like I said above (post 8?), once you have pro-level sound, things can be fine. Otherwise, I have seen/heard them get ugly...but don't get me started.

 

[mrufino1]

I did show choir in high school, now over 15 years ago...yikes! But boy, did I learn how quiet I could play. they were not amplified either if I remember correctly, so we had to be very very quiet. There were some fairly heavy arrangers involved with that group, and the drummer went on to some very big things now, and I know we both valued that lesson.
This past Easter at church we formed a small, 12 or so person choir, to do some songs with our usual lineup of very loud rock band (not my choice to be that loud, someday I will win the stage volume conversation...). Many many complaints about volume, etc. They were amplified with 2 condensers. As we do more of it hopefully things will go smoother. I can't wait for the day when we are on in-ears in church.
So, when playing with other acoustic instruments, you have to think of your instrument, be it electric guitar or bass, as an acoustic instrument, and you need to set yourself so you mix naturally in the air with the singing group, that's really the only way the situation could work.
It reminds me also of, again now many years ago, doing Jesus Christ Superstar and Tommy at a community theater that refused to amplify the stage and we had to play ultra quiet. I uess you just do what you have to do to make the gig work and smile a lot (something I did not know then but have learned in 15 years!!). Hopefully that added something to the conversation, I'm pretty tired right now!