If you want everything your way, start your own band and be prepared to pay everyone for rehearsals and gigs. Otherwise learn to get along or be prepared to be the best bass player no one wants to play with.
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Regarding telling him about his settings, you should really leave that to him. Your ability to play your instrument well does not translate to you knowing what his guitar should sound like. Gain level and EQ can be whatever the person envisioning the song thinks they should be. Now you COULD be correct that your suggestions might make it sit in the mix better, but not necessarily.
As far as needing an amp... I am a huge fan of direct to FOH, but I also pplay in a town where very few venues have a PA. Since we are bringing the setup I know what I will be going into. A lot of smaller clubs that do have PA do not really have adequate PA to carry your bass. If you aren't bringing the band PA with ample subs, you need a solid amp for gigging. You can't trust what you will find in the club. I've played places with no sub and only enough PA to reinforce the vocals.
You may be very skilled at your instrument, but your BL has a lot of years of real world experience both in playing out in the scene, and setting his tone for his guitar. You should back off on telling him how to do it and listen to his advice. Also, if you've been mostly going through the PA in your experience, then if he comes to YOU with suggestions on EQ'ing your amp, you might want to listen as it sounds like you've probably (and I could be very wrong) relied on the sound guy to EQ you in the past. Also, keep in mind with regards to your tone and his, what sounds good by itself may not be what sits in the mix well. So if you love your bedroom tone but then he is telling you it needs tweaking in the band setting, don't be too resistant.
As far as needing an amp... I am a huge fan of direct to FOH, but I also pplay in a town where very few venues have a PA. Since we are bringing the setup I know what I will be going into. A lot of smaller clubs that do have PA do not really have adequate PA to carry your bass. If you aren't bringing the band PA with ample subs, you need a solid amp for gigging. You can't trust what you will find in the club. I've played places with no sub and only enough PA to reinforce the vocals.
You may be very skilled at your instrument, but your BL has a lot of years of real world experience both in playing out in the scene, and setting his tone for his guitar. You should back off on telling him how to do it and listen to his advice. Also, if you've been mostly going through the PA in your experience, then if he comes to YOU with suggestions on EQ'ing your amp, you might want to listen as it sounds like you've probably (and I could be very wrong) relied on the sound guy to EQ you in the past. Also, keep in mind with regards to your tone and his, what sounds good by itself may not be what sits in the mix well. So if you love your bedroom tone but then he is telling you it needs tweaking in the band setting, don't be too resistant.
Wait a second... you told him to turn his mids DOWN? Are you sure you were talking to a guitar player?
Seriously though, if you felt like a metal guitar player was using too much mids, he's definitely more experienced with this stuff.
Seriously though, if you felt like a metal guitar player was using too much mids, he's definitely more experienced with this stuff.
That's it right there.
Tread carefully when tempted to give unsolicited advice. No matter what the relative ages, skills, and experience may be. Very few people want to be "corrected" by someone. Unsolicited advice is rarely heeded and causes resentment toward the person who is inclined to give it.
And even when solicited, be diplomatic and respectful. Treat others the same way you would like to be treated.
That you are seeking advice shows good insight and a desire to improve. Humility is nearly universally admired. You can go a long way in your personal growth to apologize to the guy and acknowledge that you should have kept that thought to yourself. And you'll learn a lot about the guitarist by how graciously he responds.
Well...at least you didnt go tweaking the knobs for him.
Its all in the delivery. First tell him how great he is , then make 'suggestions' with the proper wording
so he thinks its his idea
Jc
Its all in the delivery. First tell him how great he is , then make 'suggestions' with the proper wording
so he thinks its his idea
Jc
Sorry, unless he's telling you how to dial in your sound, you are wrong.
This isn't politics, this is a band, and yes you do need to get along because
unlike school, no one is being forced to be there, including you.
Dirk
This isn't politics, this is a band, and yes you do need to get along because
unlike school, no one is being forced to be there, including you.
Dirk
I won’t add anything regarding how you interact with other musicians. It’s been said already.
However, regarding the issue of FOH versus having a bass amp capable of covering the gig without it, I have played somewhere around 3,000 gigs and I’ve had my bass going through a decent FOH system in perhaps 300 of them. So, yeah, you CANNOT assume you’re going to have FOH coverage.
However, regarding the issue of FOH versus having a bass amp capable of covering the gig without it, I have played somewhere around 3,000 gigs and I’ve had my bass going through a decent FOH system in perhaps 300 of them. So, yeah, you CANNOT assume you’re going to have FOH coverage.
On point #1 - I never give advice/feedback on someone else’s sound unless asked. Or if I was the bandleader. On point #2 - I am generally an advocate of smaller amps, but for the genre you are playing, you need much more than a 112 combo. Not sure what your finances are, but you might be looking for a used 410 (they’re heavy but you are young) and a good enough head that you an use it in lots of different settings. And for the genre you’re playing with them, unless the band has a high-end pa that can handle lots of FOH bass, the venues are unlikely to have them.
I think that its great that you have the opportunity to play with people older and more experienced than you. I had the chance to do that when I was your age, and it helped me tremendously. When I was 20, I spent a summer playing jazz standards with guys in their 40s with chops who knew a million tunes that I didn’t know.
I agree with others - a low-key apology would be good (“sorry, I was out of line - I’m new at this band thing”). One thing that might help is to say that you’re always open to feedback on your playing. This might crack the door a bit to allow for the dreaded volume/tone discussions that are inevitable in a band, but that an cause so much tension.
The last band I was in, we all agreed up-front to be allowed to be candid if someone wasn’t playing a part right, or if they were too loud. It was not always an easy discussion but it made us a better band. But the key thing is, that was something that we all bought into and agreed to do.
Good luck with it - don’t give up, run with the opportunity. You’ll learn from it. Even if its not the preferred music for you, being as versatile as you can be is great for a bass player.
I think that its great that you have the opportunity to play with people older and more experienced than you. I had the chance to do that when I was your age, and it helped me tremendously. When I was 20, I spent a summer playing jazz standards with guys in their 40s with chops who knew a million tunes that I didn’t know.
I agree with others - a low-key apology would be good (“sorry, I was out of line - I’m new at this band thing”). One thing that might help is to say that you’re always open to feedback on your playing. This might crack the door a bit to allow for the dreaded volume/tone discussions that are inevitable in a band, but that an cause so much tension.
The last band I was in, we all agreed up-front to be allowed to be candid if someone wasn’t playing a part right, or if they were too loud. It was not always an easy discussion but it made us a better band. But the key thing is, that was something that we all bought into and agreed to do.
Good luck with it - don’t give up, run with the opportunity. You’ll learn from it. Even if its not the preferred music for you, being as versatile as you can be is great for a bass player.
Man the whole time I was reading this I was thinking "Big Fish, Little Pond"big fish, small pond.
- no one has such great chops that they do not have to bother with 'getting along'.
- if you want to always have your way/say: you must abandon the bass instrument in favor of solo piano.
- "right or wrong" has nothing to do with your situation....
- ....and it's a simplistic binary: what if 'real life' turns out to be way more complicated than high school?!
- unless you are a savant = you probably understand what the previous posters are telling you.
i'm guessing these older cats aren't good enough to get a decent, adult, bass player...which is an opportunity for you.
summary: more finger action, less mouth action. good luck with your playing!
At your age, your role is to learn. A good way to do that is to genuinely ASK things like "I notice you have a lot of mids in your sound. Could you explain to me why you do that?" -
This will likely play out one of 2 ways:
1) He's likely someone who can teach you a thing or two about doing your job better. If you want to grow as a musician, the people you want to learn from (not piss off) are those who have been figuring things out longer than you.
2) If he actually does have too many mids in his sound, asking that question might make him ponder, and adjust - he's probably someone who cares about his sound, and if you ask nicely, he might be willing to learn something. Asking the question is actually a far faster way to get the issue resolved (if indeed there is one) than confrontation - that's something you definitely DO need to learn.
You're not only the young kid, you're the new guy as well. I'm 62, I've been playing bass for more than twice as long as you've been alive, and when I walk into a new gig, I spend a while with just "passive radar" up - I listen and observe for a while. Certain gigs I play are like a Pop concert - I'm the bass player, there's a lot of lights and production stuff, and I'm there to do my part - suggestions as to how to improve anything would be counterproductive. Other gigs are more down to Earth, simple affairs, and suggestions are helpful. Either way, you need to spend some time getting the lay of the land before you launch into inquiries or suggestions. Telling someone else what to do with their sound is something you need to reserve for when your name is on the Marquee. For now, play bass, be easy to work with, and ask a few genuine questions.
This will likely play out one of 2 ways:
1) He's likely someone who can teach you a thing or two about doing your job better. If you want to grow as a musician, the people you want to learn from (not piss off) are those who have been figuring things out longer than you.
2) If he actually does have too many mids in his sound, asking that question might make him ponder, and adjust - he's probably someone who cares about his sound, and if you ask nicely, he might be willing to learn something. Asking the question is actually a far faster way to get the issue resolved (if indeed there is one) than confrontation - that's something you definitely DO need to learn.
You're not only the young kid, you're the new guy as well. I'm 62, I've been playing bass for more than twice as long as you've been alive, and when I walk into a new gig, I spend a while with just "passive radar" up - I listen and observe for a while. Certain gigs I play are like a Pop concert - I'm the bass player, there's a lot of lights and production stuff, and I'm there to do my part - suggestions as to how to improve anything would be counterproductive. Other gigs are more down to Earth, simple affairs, and suggestions are helpful. Either way, you need to spend some time getting the lay of the land before you launch into inquiries or suggestions. Telling someone else what to do with their sound is something you need to reserve for when your name is on the Marquee. For now, play bass, be easy to work with, and ask a few genuine questions.
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I feel a little bad for this kid. If he came in here and said he just joined a band and fired the drummer we’d be applauding him.
OP, you’ll be alright, we all learn how to interact with people...boy have I over the years.
OP, you’ll be alright, we all learn how to interact with people...boy have I over the years.
You are wrong to directly confront your bandmates. You are supposed to undermine them with gaslighting, gossip, and passive-aggressive behavior.
Echoing the sentiments of everyone that you really shouldn't "tell" anybody what to do in this situation. There's nothing wrong with expressing concern about tone clash and asking about it, but telling him is not the t correct way - especially as a teenager speaking to an established, presumably more experienced, member of a band. Ask how the toe of you can work it out. I had this conversation with one of my band mates a month or so back, but it went something like "Hey, don't mean to tell you how to sculpt your sound, but it feels like you're EQ'd a bit heavy and we're colliding a lot. Can we play with that a little?" He said, "Oh yeah, sorry, my setting got whacked in transport." and we worked it out. I didn't tell him to fix his sound, expressed a concern and we fixed it. We don't have the age/experience difference that you're dealing with, but that won't matter if discussions are more suggestive than directive.
If you otherwise get along with these guys, I would stick out for a bit - this is the kind of experience you can't get in school. IF you're miserable, move on and look for a more compatible situation.
Regarding your amp, it's hard to gauge what is needed. So many variations, but if you're going to get into club gigging, you need to be able to cover any situation from silent stage (in ears monitors and DI to the PA) to full stage sound (only vocals are going through the PA) and various levels in between. So get a rig that will work for DI only, stage bass coverage or venue bass coverage. IF this band is experienced, they should be able to tell you what you really need.
If you otherwise get along with these guys, I would stick out for a bit - this is the kind of experience you can't get in school. IF you're miserable, move on and look for a more compatible situation.
Regarding your amp, it's hard to gauge what is needed. So many variations, but if you're going to get into club gigging, you need to be able to cover any situation from silent stage (in ears monitors and DI to the PA) to full stage sound (only vocals are going through the PA) and various levels in between. So get a rig that will work for DI only, stage bass coverage or venue bass coverage. IF this band is experienced, they should be able to tell you what you really need.
This is all helpful you guys. Thank you
Hmm... lots and lots of really great advice here. At the risk of sounding redundant, first let me recognize and agree with what has been said. Next, please do not interpret what I write next as a rebuke in any way. I along with everyone else here is earnestly trying to help you and provide useful information.
One point to realize is this is similar to dealing with people in any context, band or not. You first have to move from being the new young guy to a trusted band member. What first struck me about your post is that you have not mentioned striking up a rapport with the other band members before offering your opinion. OK, you've been involved in High School ensembles...great. You have been in a couple of start up projects and played a couple of events...great. What you are into now is a whole different ballgame. You need to understand your place and role in the band. Right now, I assume that would be to establish yourself as a competent Bass player. Let's face it, you don't have a ton of "real-world" playing under your belt. You've been given some accolades based on your playing. That is likely in the context of your peers. As you begin to move into more and more situations, you'll likely realize that those who have survived for years are, for the most part, very good at what they do.
Look at it this way, Let's say you played a sport, Baseball, and you made the Little League all-start team at 10 and 11. Everyone recognized you as a good player with potential based on your peers. Now, you move on to high school and suddenly the players are that much better and you still can hang, but maybe you don't shine quite as much. A few get College scholarships to play and while they were standouts in High School, they are now playing with everyone else who was a High School standout, so they don't look as impressive any more, just sort of average as compared to their peers. See where I'm going? As you move along you are playing with all those folks who moved on to the next level and they, for the most part, are at least as good as you and maybe even better. My oldest daughter who now has a degree in music, often muses with me over a situation when she was in High School. She was one of the standouts and along came a student who played guitar and everyone lauded over his ability. I heard him play at a concert and my daughter later asked me what I thought. My immediate reaction was that he need to work on his chops because his playing, while fast, was very sloppy. She was taken back by my response and a little while later the band director mentioned the very same thing to him since, in his case, his head had begun to swell with all the accolades. Moral of the story; don't let your ego get the better of you because no matter how good you are, there's always someone better. Always be willing to learn even if the player is less skilled than you. Experience can trump raw talent.
Presumably, these are experienced musicians who may have been playing together for a while or, at the least, know of each other and their reputations precede them at the very least. You're trying to break in, so learn what you can from these folks!
Be inquisitive and ask questions like; "is my tone ok?" that opens the door for discussion. You might also ask something like; "WOW a Mesa... I've not heard one of these up close. Can you explain to me how you go about shaping your tone?" This shows an interest in learning and I think you'll find he opens up about what he's thinking and how he goes about his business. Now, you can have a great conversation about things which will serve you well and it might just get him thinking about tweaks he could make to help the band.
An age old technique is to ask questions that summarize and reflect what was just said. For instance; "The tone of my amp is a bit scooped, so I typically bump the mids." You could reply; "Oh, I see... you bump the mids because the Mesa seems scooped to you. I had not considered that. What does it sound like when the mids are not bumped?" ... get it? This approach is quite a bit different than just being direct, even if you're right. The latter approach will just typically make someone defensive which seems likely what you received. Only after a long time can trust and friendship be built up enough where you can be direct with someone as you seem to have done. In the end, it's about respect; you have to give it to receive it.
One point to realize is this is similar to dealing with people in any context, band or not. You first have to move from being the new young guy to a trusted band member. What first struck me about your post is that you have not mentioned striking up a rapport with the other band members before offering your opinion. OK, you've been involved in High School ensembles...great. You have been in a couple of start up projects and played a couple of events...great. What you are into now is a whole different ballgame. You need to understand your place and role in the band. Right now, I assume that would be to establish yourself as a competent Bass player. Let's face it, you don't have a ton of "real-world" playing under your belt. You've been given some accolades based on your playing. That is likely in the context of your peers. As you begin to move into more and more situations, you'll likely realize that those who have survived for years are, for the most part, very good at what they do.
Look at it this way, Let's say you played a sport, Baseball, and you made the Little League all-start team at 10 and 11. Everyone recognized you as a good player with potential based on your peers. Now, you move on to high school and suddenly the players are that much better and you still can hang, but maybe you don't shine quite as much. A few get College scholarships to play and while they were standouts in High School, they are now playing with everyone else who was a High School standout, so they don't look as impressive any more, just sort of average as compared to their peers. See where I'm going? As you move along you are playing with all those folks who moved on to the next level and they, for the most part, are at least as good as you and maybe even better. My oldest daughter who now has a degree in music, often muses with me over a situation when she was in High School. She was one of the standouts and along came a student who played guitar and everyone lauded over his ability. I heard him play at a concert and my daughter later asked me what I thought. My immediate reaction was that he need to work on his chops because his playing, while fast, was very sloppy. She was taken back by my response and a little while later the band director mentioned the very same thing to him since, in his case, his head had begun to swell with all the accolades. Moral of the story; don't let your ego get the better of you because no matter how good you are, there's always someone better. Always be willing to learn even if the player is less skilled than you. Experience can trump raw talent.
Presumably, these are experienced musicians who may have been playing together for a while or, at the least, know of each other and their reputations precede them at the very least. You're trying to break in, so learn what you can from these folks!
Be inquisitive and ask questions like; "is my tone ok?" that opens the door for discussion. You might also ask something like; "WOW a Mesa... I've not heard one of these up close. Can you explain to me how you go about shaping your tone?" This shows an interest in learning and I think you'll find he opens up about what he's thinking and how he goes about his business. Now, you can have a great conversation about things which will serve you well and it might just get him thinking about tweaks he could make to help the band.
An age old technique is to ask questions that summarize and reflect what was just said. For instance; "The tone of my amp is a bit scooped, so I typically bump the mids." You could reply; "Oh, I see... you bump the mids because the Mesa seems scooped to you. I had not considered that. What does it sound like when the mids are not bumped?" ... get it? This approach is quite a bit different than just being direct, even if you're right. The latter approach will just typically make someone defensive which seems likely what you received. Only after a long time can trust and friendship be built up enough where you can be direct with someone as you seem to have done. In the end, it's about respect; you have to give it to receive it.
It might be that you are actually a great player, especially if feedback from other consistently indicates as much. However, it might also be that you've allowed this consistent feedback make you think you're better or know more than others you encounter; that it's fostered a certain arrogance that needs to be checked. In relation to your actions in this particular situation, regardless of whether you happen to be right or wrong, making demands of others won't get you very far. There's a lot at stake including friendships, professional relationships, reputation, etc. Consider these things when interacting with others.
This reminds me a lot of a nephew I have who's also 18. He's often told he is very smart and has a lot of potential, but he's very arrogant and selfish.
Out of curiosity, what did you take away from everyone's advice?
Yes, you are that green at being in a band. Yes, you are wrong to "tell" someone how to deal with their equipment. Doesn't mean you were necessarily wrong about his sound, but definitely the wrong approach. Whether or not you can really play (and never believe everyone else' hype about you, that stuff goes straight to the head and never turns out well - stay humble, keep working) is immaterial to the original question of "telling" someone what to do with their gear.
But this is all part of being young and working with other musicians. This is where you learn your band-mate skills, how to pose ideas and thoughts on what might be going wrong in a given setting. I've not reacted well in the past when someone else commenced to "tell" me what to do. Learn how to approach these situations more tactfully. "Something's not quite right" or "Something's not gelling with our tone together, what can we do to fix it?"
People who tend to get and keep the most work are not always the most proficient at their instrument and definitely not the ones who "tell" others what to do with their gear. They tend to be the ones who are easy to work with and have the best attitude. You have plenty time to develop yours, you got this.
There is great advice above.
Mine is simple: make your bones before you make waves.
At 18 you're the new guy. It's not your band, and it's a compliment to you that they added you to the band. But you don't get to make the rules yet.
Take a few months to get to know everyone. Find your place in the band. If you really need to discuss volume, EQ or other things like this with band members, do it as a question. "Can you help me understand why you use the EQ the way you do?" "How do you think we can get the best mix between you and me?" This is a polite way to recognize their experience and still get information.
As for the amp, many small venues will use your amp for bass, not the PA. I don't use the PA, I just bring my own amp. Larger venues will require use of the PA because an amp may be impractical for the size of the house and the sound system. So the answer depends on the venue and the volume.
My own approach to an amp is to get more power than I need, since I can always turn down. 100W is an absolute minimum for an amp with any type of versatility, but it's only going to handle small to medium venues. You don't mention the power of the amp you have, but you may need more. Larger venues will require 300W and higher. You might look at the the Fender Rumble series if you like combos, and it's easy to get up to 500W in that series. Otherwise, I'd recommend a class D amp for light weight, coupled with an efficient 2x12 cab. If you want to go heavier, a 4x10 cab.
Become a real member of the group, build relationships and learn from the experience. You can upgrade the amp now, but I'd buy used and minimize expenses. You will almost certainly play in other bands while you still own that amp.
Mine is simple: make your bones before you make waves.
At 18 you're the new guy. It's not your band, and it's a compliment to you that they added you to the band. But you don't get to make the rules yet.
Take a few months to get to know everyone. Find your place in the band. If you really need to discuss volume, EQ or other things like this with band members, do it as a question. "Can you help me understand why you use the EQ the way you do?" "How do you think we can get the best mix between you and me?" This is a polite way to recognize their experience and still get information.
As for the amp, many small venues will use your amp for bass, not the PA. I don't use the PA, I just bring my own amp. Larger venues will require use of the PA because an amp may be impractical for the size of the house and the sound system. So the answer depends on the venue and the volume.
My own approach to an amp is to get more power than I need, since I can always turn down. 100W is an absolute minimum for an amp with any type of versatility, but it's only going to handle small to medium venues. You don't mention the power of the amp you have, but you may need more. Larger venues will require 300W and higher. You might look at the the Fender Rumble series if you like combos, and it's easy to get up to 500W in that series. Otherwise, I'd recommend a class D amp for light weight, coupled with an efficient 2x12 cab. If you want to go heavier, a 4x10 cab.
Become a real member of the group, build relationships and learn from the experience. You can upgrade the amp now, but I'd buy used and minimize expenses. You will almost certainly play in other bands while you still own that amp.
You have no input short of ..." can you turn down( or up) a little?
Please and thank you go a long way even in a rock band
Please and thank you go a long way even in a rock band
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