PLEASE HELP ME WITH ADVICE! Don't Know if I Am Wrong Here

[nomaj]

To the OP, apologize immediately to the band leader. Whether he wants you to remain in his band, or if you want to remain in his band is separate matter.

But you definitely want to avoid having a reputation as being difficult to work with. Band leaders will choose someone competent with an agreeable personality EVERY TIME over someone that may have slightly better technique but who is known as being prickly.

 

[morgansterne]

I was in an original band where all that they really wanted was a robot to play the lines they wrote. Nobody wanted my input on which songs to play, how to promote the band, how to record songs.
They would not allow me to sing harmonies.
I truly loved the songs the guitarist was writing, so I was bummed to have to quit. But there's other bands out there that were willing to treat me as a musical partner, though the bandleader has the final say on things.
Don't be in a band where you're treated as a bass guitar jukebox instead of a musician (unless you're being very well paid).

 

[SactoBass]

2nd time typing this out so unfortunately since I couldn't retrieve my other thread text I must explain again...I am 18 and still in High school. I have been playing bass since 9 and have really excelled. I have been told I high a lot of skill. I do play a lot I guess, from Jazz ensemble, regular band, pep band, and the show choir band I play bass in all. I have also been in several small groups which didn't last very long. A few small shows here and there and the talent show at my school each year.

I recently joined an alternative Rock/Metal group with a deftones/rage/nirvana stoner rock clutch type sound. The guitarist is 32 and has wrote all the originals we play. We also do a few 90's covers.

This weekend I told him to turn his gain down and another time I said to turn his mids down. Both times he got upset and said this is my "Sound" and this is the way I have my amp set up. (HE has a Mesa boogie combo) He almost seemed mad and he said I was rude to tell him how to set up his amp. Is he Right? Am I wrong?

I am used to being the most experienced in my groups but this is my first like Rock group planning to gig at small venues and bars on the local scene. I play a 1x12 bugera combo, and he also said I will need a lil bit bigger and louder amp to play shows with.

I have always run my bass mainly through the PA. But my school does have very high end equipment. He said most venues will need you to run a decent amp on stage and the PA will just fill it out.

I don't know if I should quit, or if I really am that green at being in a band with more experienced musicians than me.

Is it true most bassists use a mid or decent size amp on stage and not mainly ran through the PA?

And am I wrong to tell him how to adjust his amp? He has played in a lot of bands and helped run sound for even more. But I have been told I can really play, but maybe thats not all thats needed?

Please Help I feel this is a good fit and feels good when were clicking.

First of all, welcome to Talkbass!

Also, *good job* in telling yourself to seek the input of other musicians regarding your scenario.

Please allow me to ask you a question. Imagine a scenario where you already had an established band together except one of the positions needed to be filled. Along comes a 14 year old whiz kid who has been playing for many years and he obviously knows how to play. He joins your band, and then he starts telling you how to adjust your amp settings. How would you react?

I have always found it very helpful to see things from the other person's perspective instead of my own perspective. It's a real mind-opener! I didn't know how to do that when I was 18 years old. I'm 63 now, and I think I finally figured it out somewhere in my 40's.

Good luck to you!

 

[five7]

Use earplugs and his tone won't bother you as much.

 

[fhm555]

First, practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent so just because someone has been playing for a number of years does not by default mean they are doing it right.
That said, as the new guy and a youngster at that, develop some tact if you want to be taken seriously, especially by older more experienced players. More good music projects are killed by ego and arrogance than anything else so learn to offer suggestions rather than orders, and advice rather than instructions. Phrasing and tone in the spoken word are very important to effectively working with someone afflicted with a pathological need for attention. It’s the old saw about more flies with honey in that situation.
As for amps? Work from the assumption you may need to play with no FOH support and get something that will carry you in that situation. You can always turn down but it’s tough to turn up when you are already pegged.
Another consideration in amps is headroom. The harder you push an amp the hotter it runs and heat is the number one amp killer so if you need 350W most of the time, build a 500W capable setup and you’ll be less likely to be saying, “Oh poopie, what happened?” mid set.
Beyond that, keep working at it. it never hurts to have a working competence with an instrument.

 

[Riff Ranger]

@Twofingeraction I generally agree with the general agreement you're reading here and don't have much new to add in answer to your two specific questions (other than that if you do gig that 1x12 Bugera, @JimmyM will be even more impressed with you). I will add that, having been the promising-but-green-18-year-old in a band with been-around-the-block-30-somethings myself, I regret assuming that my bandmates' extensive experience and skill in some areas translated to wisdom in everything. In my case, my bandmates wrote good material, performed well, and sounded great*; I decided to let them handle everything business related since I figured I didn't know anything about that ... aaaaand we played to empty rooms for no money about half the time. So: while it's worthwhile to learn tact (when addressing anybody, not just "your elders"), don't assume "your elders" know it all just because they're older; many of them have never learned tact themselves. Good for you for looking into how you handle yourself.

*They even took my suggestions about tone! I hadn't really thought about the guitarist's tone much as I always liked how he sounded, but when he switched to a Telecaster one night, the drummer and I both just blurted out, "ooh, I like that!" And the guitarist played the Tele live ever after

 

[Yonni]

I'm both confused and intrigued by this post. Who's Grady?

If I’m following this right Grady is the OP who is posing as the teen bass player but is actually the guitar player?!? My guess is that the bass player is a member here and the OP is hoping that they see this thread and realise their mistake? I’m really confused.

 

[51PRI]

...I recently joined an alternative Rock/Metal group...The guitarist is 32 and has wrote all the originals we play...This weekend I told him to turn his gain down and another time I said to turn his mids down. Both times he got upset and said this is my "Sound" and this is the way I have my amp set up...And am I wrong to tell him how to adjust his amp?...

Yes, you are, in this case, wrong to tell him how to adjust his amp. You are 18, he is 32, and he wrote the songs. Just do your part and learn how to be in a band and how to play bass in a band situation of all originals.

...I have always run my bass mainly through the PA. ....Is it true most bassists use a mid or decent size amp on stage and not mainly ran through the PA?...

Yes, that is true. Unless you are at the stadium level of gigging, you will need an amp that is powerful enough to give you good onstage presence, and then the PA can be used for support.

 

[creaturegods]

Weird thread.
The OP states nothing about this guitar player other than "he writes the songs" and "he's 32" and yet, people responding just assume that he has years of band experience and is actually paying this kid.

OP, if this story is true, I have 2 concerns. 1, if this band is scouting out high schools for band members, they have probably burned through a lot of other bass players in the community. 2, if they want to play shows with "rock/grunge" originals and '90s covers, I'm assuming a lot of the venues are going to be bars or 21+ clubs. You know who's not allowed in bars and 21+ clubs? 18 year olds.

Best of luck to all involved in this situation.

 

[Ekulati]

Since we already have a beloved and esteemed colleague here on TB with the screen name Two Fingers, I hereby officially move that OP's name be hereafter changed to Major Stones.

 

[Droopy_TX]

If I’m following this right Grady is the OP who is posing as the teen bass player but is actually the guitar player?!? My guess is that the bass player is a member here and the OP is hoping that they see this thread and realise their mistake? I’m really confused.

That's the way I read it, too. In which case, the proper advice is run, don't walk, away from this manipulative narcissist guitarist (BIRM).

 

[mambo4]

Just so you all know this was not written by the teen bassplayer but by the guitar player.

So two brand new TB members join in one day, just for this thread
1.) OP claims to be the 18 yo bassist
2.) Other claims the OP is really the guitarist posing as the 18 yo bassist

In either cases the OP needs to grow up and learn to communicate and cooperate like a competent adult.

[edit]
also, if case #2 is true, a 32 year old man taking his petty band grievances to social media (under a false identity) in order to count coup on an 18 year old girl is creepily too familiar. I believe gas lighting is against TB policy.
Rule #8: Represent yourself truthfully.

 

[51PRI]

Weird thread. The OP states nothing about this guitar player other than "he writes the songs" ...

In my opinion the person who writes the songs has pretty much veto power over just about everything to do with the song, within reason, no matter how good the new bass player is. Anyway, I feel that way about the original band that I'm in and that I'm the main songwriter in. If I write the song it's not a democracy about that song. If I like another member's idea I'll let it be used, but, if not, I won't.

in the OP's case there would be no band without the lead guitar player's songwriting, so keep that in mind and be respectful.

 

[Tommygun_ted]

My current band, one of the guitarists is quite a bit more tone savvy than the other. He understands that what sounds good on its own may not sound good with the band. Our tone together is great. The other guitarist is much less experienced, and his tone is essentially just the treble cranked. He gets washed out when the whole band plays, and then we rip on his crappy tone. We have that kind of relationship though where we can discuss the issue without offending anyone. My previous band, I played with a lot of bad tones myself, because even though nobody else played bass in the band, being 10 years younger, my input was generally brushed aside. So I would set up my amp the way I was asked to, then afterwards when the band leader would complain that the bass was too boom or muddy, I would again explain why I set my EQ the way I do. Older musicians don't always know best, but unless you have the kind of relationship with them where they take your opinions seriously, it's best to just let them sound bad, then make suggestions if they want them.

 

[punchdrunk]

Welcome to rock guitarist‘ville.... where the amps are loud and the butthurt comes easy.

 

[SoCal80s]

....he said I was rude to tell him how to set up his amp. Is he Right? Am I wrong? ...I don't know if I should quit...maybe thats not all thats needed?...

Being in a band is about learning to work with others. Assuming neither of you is making much money from this yet, if any, then you are both here on a voluntary basis. When you are working with volunteers then you can suggest they try something different ("I think we need that line sounds like it's getting buried in the mud, do you think it might help if you turn down your gain?"), and they can take it or leave it, and then you can take it or leave. But no one can just tell anyone what to do. You're all volunteers and no one has to take anything they don't want to. Now if there is actual money involved then it depends on who is the boss and how much you want that money, but that is different then a volunteer situation.

So eventually you might get to the point where you have to decide to keep playing with those guys or quit because too many of your suggestions are being ignored. Make this decision by asking yourself: 1) Do I like the music? 2) Do I like hanging out with these guys? 3) Will this lead to me making some actual money some day? Weigh your answers and make your choice.

As to your amp needs, a gigging bassist needs to be ready for anything. In 99% of my gigs I go direct to the PA because we bring our own PA and I know it can handle it. But I still have a half-stack that I can bring with me when I don't know what PA support will be available (such as subbing, rehearsing in a new place, in-house PA's, etc.).

 

[BurtMacklinFBI]

2Fingers, there is a part of being a musician that you will NEVER learn in school, whether your HS projects or even if you work up and go on to Berklee or any of the handful of other great music colleges.

You could call it paying your dues, learning the rules of the road, the hang, there's any number of ways to put it. And if you're a great player, you're not inclined to suffer fools gladly . . . . . . but in a lot of cases, that's exactly what you're going to have to do.

Despite what you've accomplished so far, there's a lot to learn, and your interaction with other musicians (who often may not be 'all that'), and thriving on the bandstand with them is a big part of learning your trade.

Otherwise, you can get pegged so fast you won't believe it as that 'smart-ass kid who was trying to tell ME how to set up my Mesa'. Musicians gossip worse than old ladies. Word of mouth in any local scene is everything, and it's way too easy to screw yourself out of it. I've been there. Maybe you are the new hot bass player, but keep running that mouth and they'll be more than happy to find a guy with lesser chops, but is a great guy to be around. Music business isn't like the Olympics, there's more to it than just being the best player, and it sure isn't fair.

DON'T be that guy.

Keep your eyes and ears open, get your radar and intuition going, and IF you got to pipe up, be supportive and sympatico . . . . . and respect your elders. IF someone's going to offer you a gig, make damn sure you got the playing covered, and leave them thinking how easy it was to work with you. That's how you make your bones and get more calls.

This guy has paying gigs, writes his own music, and is smart enough to play a Boogie, and offered you a job and pays you to do it. Remember that. And yes, you are that green, but we ALL were in our time.

As time and budget allows, you're gonna need more than a 112 combo. If you start playing lots of clubs, it will run the gamut from a few spots with great FOH, to places that barely have enough to call a bingo game. So you're going to have to cover yourself for all those 'other' places with a rig big enough to carry the room(s).

I'm not getting on you: I'm trying to tell you the things I wish someone would have told me.

This, pretty much. You have a pretty cool opportunity here that I would have liked to have at your age. Don’t blow it by being pushy. Play it cool. Do upgrade to a more powerful amp, don’t tell the guitarist his business.

 

[CBBass123]

Not sure why some peeps think the OP is right about tone settings... especially when telling a guitarist to turn "down" their mids. In a live setting, turning down mids means less cut through to be heard on stage especially with loud drummers. Takes alot of gigging experience to understand tone in different environments.

And yes, if you are playing any type of metal, a 112 amp will prob not cut it on stage for everyone to hear you stagewise. Yes, you might be loud on PA to audience, but if that drummer can't hear you, there might be problems. Drums and bass gotta mesh together and hear each other.

 

[chadds]

Looks like a reality check has been stated enough here. Nothing a stint in an Army band couldn't correct.

LOL!

 

[mcnach]

First of all, especially since you are younger, you shouldn't be telling him. How would you feel if a freshman flute player in the school band came up to you and told you what to do with your EQ? You may be right, but that's not how to approach it. If you are talking tone, try "have you tried x?".

As to amps, it depends, but not many small places have PAs that will cover everything. It's likely one 12" won't cut it. Unless you have a super cab, like a Bareface, I would want to have 4 10s, 2 12s or 2 15s, and probably 300 watts.

Relax, keep playing. The fact that they are willing to play with a high schooler means they respect your ability.

I disagree about the younger/older thing but agree with the general gist. Being older doesn't give anybody any extra rights. We should be able to discuss band sound with anyone... politely, yes, not giving orders, but the dialogue must be open and frank.

I was not there, so I can't say if maybe the OP was not tactful enough, maybe he could have phrased things more diplomatically, I don't know... it's after all a skill that one learns with age (and bad experiences ) but I've also met enough band members, often guitarists, who are too selfcentered and far up their own arses who can't even accept having a discussion about how they do what they do.

The fact the guitarist is suggesting that you need a big amp onstage and that the PA is just to fill in the sound, added to his getting upset, makes me think he may not know as much as he think he does. However, he may be speaking from having seen first hand that the Bugera 12" may not be enough, and he may be right.
Personally, while I prefer something more substantial, I have played plenty of gigs with a single 12" combo/speaker onstage, because it is largely just my own bass monitor and nothing else. Any decent venue that gets my bass through their PA means they are in control of my bass amplification for the venue: the amplifier onstage is just a monitor, and the sound engineers will invariably be happiest when bands don't get loud onstage, as they can control the sound in the venue better. Having said that, not every 12" combo is the same. I had a 100W Hartke combo with a single 15" speaker and it struggled at times. The 300W MarkBass CMD121P didn't have as much depth, but it was very effective as a monitor onstage despite its tiny size.