Poll: Getting a better DI tone live (without IEMs)

[scowboy]

I did the same with a JDI and VT Bass V2 for a number of years...it's not exotic or super high end, but it always worked and the sound techs were happy.

I still do this, I'm on IEM's 100%. No complaints.

 

[JohnnyBottom]

I have a broughton HPF/LPF going into a Shiftline MkIII the XLR out goes to FOH. The 1/4 output goes to my Mesa D800+. The MKIII has tube,optional Cabsim and non extreme EQ going just to FOH. I rarely touch the MkIII after soundcheck so the FOH signal is stable. I am free to tweak the Mesa all day for my stage sound w/o effecting the FOH signal. IF I had FOH coming out of Mesa 'Pre' then why bother going thru Mesa. If it comes out 'Post' and I am EQing for my stage sound and sending that to FOH it is kind of off base and random sending a stage EQrf signal to FOH.

New hitch is I just got a Shaw tube Injection that has such great fat tube goodness I may flip out the MKIII.
Shaw is a clean signal but so much warmer than the MKIII, beautiful mids, just no cabsim which is probably fine since Im not dirty. Tough call.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hey all,

Been struggling with how to move forward with my live sound and wanted to call on the group's advice.

I've been running a mesa d800 into an avatar 212 and it's been a pretty solid setup but during a recent recording session I discovered there's a small amount of buzzing in the cabinet (no worries, I've gotten more than my money's worth out of it). I was all ready to buy a new cab (and had already had a great conversation with Dave at Revsound) when I had a crisis of confidence in whether dropping the bread on a nice new pro cabinet was worth it for me.

Usually when I play live I just get a DI line. Sometimes when I play live the sound engineer mics my cab to compliment the DI. The gigs (we're hoping) to have lined up next year are mostly opening slots for bigger acts where we won't have our own sound person and I probably will be dealing with a different person each night. I REALLY don't want to rely on asking for a lot of attention during soundcheck, or having some complicated setup that takes a lot of explanation. While I play an important sonic role in this group, we're billed as just our singer's name and a great deal of sound check is (and should) be dedicated to getting his vocal sound right.

Someday I hope we'll be on IEMs but that doesn't appear to be in the cards in the short term, and for now me and my bandmates depend on me having a cab onstage making sound.

I run a lot of effects. On maybe half of our songs there's no proper bass in the verses at all and I do a variety of pad effects and then drop the bass in the chorus. I also use fuzz/overdrive on a few songs. The pad sounds especially have gotten pretty complicated and I very much need to be hearing my sound live as I'm playing (I'll often bend over a twist a knob on one of my delays as I'm sweeping in a pad with my volume pedal, for instance).

I got the chance to listen back to a couple of gigs that were recorded recently and one high end one I sounded great (and my cab was mic'ed) but the other one I was sterile, not compressed enough (to my ears) and had the swarm of bees issue when I hit fuzz.

The mesa is GREAT product ... across the board sound engineers say the signal out of the DI is strong and easy to work with, but I think the issue it's too dry for what I do. I do like what the preamp and eq on the amp do, but I'm struggling on how to integrate a cabsim with the d800, if that's what I need.

I've been reading about all these cool looking products like the DSM Omnicabsim and Bass Station, Shift Line Olympic, Broughton Messenger and Resonant Filter Equalizer, and various other DI/preamps and compressors, and the problem that I keep running into is that I wouldn't be hearing my actual signal onstage. It seems a lot of these products are marketed with IEMs in mind. Partially the problem is that the Mesa doesn't have a way of bypassing the preamp (so for instance I could only use the thru output of the Shift Line).

I certainly like the idea of going on the journey of figuring out always on preamps, cabsim (or something like it) and compressors at the end of my chain, but I'm wary of showing up with such a complicated and perhaps atypical setup.

What sayest thou talkbass?

Pedalboard included for context. The band in question is modern alt country. Bass is a lakland dj5 w a series push/pull mod strung with flats.

View attachment 4076700

You don't want a cabsim bro, you'll lose your highs and lows. You guys need to hire an engineer. That way you all can have someone who works with you on ensuring your best sound every night.

Til then, you should just get a beta 52.

 

[FunkyFlashFive]

Get a Di that does cab sim with IR and handles speaker level, put between head and speaker, problem solved. If you want to stick with Mesa, the Mesa Cab Clone IR fits the bill

 

[mattj1stc]

Wow, this is a great question. First, there is no substitute for a great sound engineer. No matter what gear you have, they will can make you shine. Conversely, an incompetent sound engineer can mess you up, even if you have great gear.

While I don’t use as many pedals as the OP, I have found that having some tube in your DI can eliminate some of the brittle sound. I use a REDDI for that reason as my “dry” signal, meaning bass to REDDI to board. For my amp tone, I go bass to VT Deluxe to the effects return in the back of my amp. I use my amp mostly to hear myself onstage vs. generate a specific sound. Because I run the way I do, my “wet” signal can come from micing my cab, from my amp’s DI out or from the VT Deluxe. It really depends on what the sound engineer wants.

 

[BrotherRay]

Sell your music stuff, buy land & a tractor, grow carrots, and prepare for the end times.
Fixed it. Link Removed

 

[bdplaid]

but you can't go wrong with the Q-strip

I tried the Qstrip. I agree it's an awesome pre for tone shaping, but I never got the LPF working nearly as effectively as the Broughton or the graphic.

Last thing I'd suggest, because you mentioned compression and I see the mini Diamond Comp on your board, is to try running that last in your signal as opposed to first.

I also use a Diamond first in my chain, because it just sounds great. But having a comp last is good too, so I use an omnifx Smoothie last. One comp for tone, another for leveling and punch.

 

[Pacodelivery]

I love growing carrots! I especially like the yellow varieties. The trick is thorough tilth, well timed thinning, and plenty of potassium. If you’ve got rocky soil use Nantes varieties.

Sell your music stuff, buy land & a tractor, grow carrots, and prepare for the end times.
Fixed it. Link Removed

 

[Bo-Weevil]

I run a modded Zoom G5n with a combo G5n and B3n patches.
This hits a Broughton Messenger, where I utilize both HPF and LPF.
This signal gets split, DI to FOH and my IEM mix, whereas the 1/4” runs to my back line (TC RH750, RS212, RS112) if one is needed.
If I do use a back line, it’s dialed flat, and only tweaked to acknowledge an issue with the stage or room.
I also have a REDDI, but have found the extra setup time is not worth the gains I may be able to achieve.
That may change in 2021 or 2022, but definitely not right now.

 

[Dave Hill]

If I need a cab, DI out of my pre.
if not, P-15 for the win.
I can’t imagine the DI out of your Mesa doesn’t sound great (?)
Do you have a pre/post eq switch?

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

I did the same with a JDI and VT Bass V2 for a number of years...it's not exotic or super high end, but it always worked and the sound techs were happy.

I really dont care about exotic or high end.
I want things simple, easy and for everyone on the gig to be happy.
Plus that set up cant take a direct grenade blast and still keep working.,

 

[sears]

I need to come see your band. I could picture a Wilco kind of thing from your description.

If we're talking about SHOPPING this festive season (since this is TB) I'll throw another idea at you. An RNDI or a Lightning Boy 2020 has a way of making crispy high end sound good.

or just an LPF

 

[Pacodelivery]

Hey all thanks for all the thoughtful responses!

 

[Pacodelivery]

get something like a Broughton P-15 - send the DI to the board and the effected 1/4” to the effects loop return of your Mesa. Now you have a better preamp and a better DI signal

I've strongly considerd this option, the problem is I have a d800 not a d800+ and unless I'm mistaken you can only do this on the plus model because mine lacks the fx loop. Worth trading up to the plus for this functionality?

 

[Pacodelivery]

Ooh I'm very interested in the Shaw ... we played some pretty big shows in 2019 opening for national acts and I saw this on a lot of the boards of the touring bassists for the headliners, partially I think because the builder is out of Nashville where all those players live.

Is the Broughton HPF/LPF redundant with the Shift Line? Or do you use it instead of the IRs on the shift line? Is all this sent in the front end of the Mesa or into the effects return?

I have a broughton HPF/LPF going into a Shiftline MkIII the XLR out goes to FOH. The 1/4 output goes to my Mesa D800+. The MKIII has tube,optional Cabsim and non extreme EQ going just to FOH. I rarely touch the MkIII after soundcheck so the FOH signal is stable. I am free to tweak the Mesa all day for my stage sound w/o effecting the FOH signal. IF I had FOH coming out of Mesa 'Pre' then why bother going thru Mesa. If it comes out 'Post' and I am EQing for my stage sound and sending that to FOH it is kind of off base and random sending a stage EQrf signal to FOH.

New hitch is I just got a Shaw tube Injection that has such great fat tube goodness I may flip out the MKIII.
Shaw is a clean signal but so much warmer than the MKIII, beautiful mids, just no cabsim which is probably fine since Im not dirty. Tough call.

 

[Pacodelivery]

Lol thx I wish I could show you but unfortunately the label and the licensing company own the tracks rn and they're not public yet.

I have a JDI I use for home studio stuff and I keep in my gig bag as a backup if my amp were to go down but I've wondered if upgrading the DI is part of how to do this well.

I need to come see your band. I could picture a Wilco kind of thing from your description.

If we're talking about SHOPPING this festive season (since this is TB) I'll throw another idea at you. An RNDI or a Lightning Boy 2020 has a way of making crispy high end sound good.

or just an LPF

 

[Pacodelivery]

Yeah when I've mapped out a sort of modular approach to this I've imagined a tone shaper then an always on comp, I've thought about the markbass compressore for this purpose based on ovnilab.

I tried the Qstrip. I agree it's an awesome pre for tone shaping, but I never got the LPF working nearly as effectively as the Broughton or the graphic.



I also use a Diamond first in my chain, because it just sounds great. But having a comp last is good too, so I use an omnifx Smoothie last. One comp for tone, another for leveling and punch.

 

[Pacodelivery]

This is intriguing. I've run a speaker level DI before (a countryman) but never with a cabsim. Do you do this? Does it work well for you? I looked at that product and it seems geared for guitar.

Get a Di that does cab sim with IR and handles speaker level, put between head and speaker, problem solved. If you want to stick with Mesa, the Mesa Cab Clone IR fits the bill

 

[Pacodelivery]

Yeah that Shift Line product is very appealing to me, I used to run a tube amp and I'd love to get that sound without the hassel or the weight. The only thing that concerns me is that it seems like it processes your signal quite a bit, that is, it sounds pretty different coming out (as opposed to a hpf/lpf which comparatively processes things less) and so then if I'm using the thru line I'm more or less flying blind because what is coming out of my cabinet isn't what the house is getting so it makes it tricky to dial in sounds. I'll get a little through my monitor but I've also gotta get lead vocal, my vocal, and the lead vocalist's acoustic through there and I have to proritize the vocals because I sing a lot of harmony and some of them are pretty challenging. But maybe I rly should just be getting an amp with a preamp bypass like the d800+.

I have to second/third and fourth what a lot of other folks have said. If you really are particular about the sound that FOH is getting you have to control it somehow before they get it. I understand too that openers get minimal time to soundcheck as opposed to headliners, and sometimes you're not even playing out of your own rig because bands don't want that much gear cramping the stage etc..

Cab sims/HPF/LPF will certainly clean up your sound. Ideally sound engineers are doing this anyway (filtering) to make your sound present in a mix; and especially in boomy rooms, providing clarity to your signal. I know this doesn't always happen for groups, especially opening bands, where the first two to three songs can be a wash as FOH can sometimes be mixing on the fly.

Personally I'd recommend the Shift Line Olympic; because it has and amp-like EQ, cab sims and a thru line so that it doesn't color your amp signal unless you want it to; but you can't go wrong with the Q-strip, VTDI or even the Broughton high and low pass filter pedals. I even use the Colourbox V2 from JHS from time to time to dial in my eq as it has a built in HPF as well.

Last thing I'd suggest, because you mentioned compression and I see the mini Diamond Comp on your board, is to try running that last in your signal as opposed to first. That way it's grabbing up everything you're sending it the pads, the fuzz etc... and it's compressing all of that down before hitting FOH. I used to have a Diamond and know that it sounds great, personally I never ran it last in the chain, but I have done this with my Cali76 and it helped tame fuzzes and harsh overdrives. You might find too that the pads pop a little more because they're being compressed after the fact.

Good luck!

 

[JohnnyBottom]

Ooh I'm very interested in the Shaw ... we played some pretty big shows in 2019 opening for national acts and I saw this on a lot of the boards of the touring bassists for the headliners, partially I think because the builder is out of Nashville where all those players live.

Is the Broughton HPF/LPF redundant with the Shift Line? Or do you use it instead of the IRs on the shift line? Is all this sent in the front end of the Mesa or into the effects return?

I dont really think the HPF/LPF is redundant, the CabSim is only going to FOH if I use it. But maybe if Im using and amp with a HPF it may be. Shaw is just great. Nice fat tone, nice clear mids. A lot of flexibility. Love it. It will displace the MkIII I think. There are a couple of youtube videos that show it well. The Shaw is 7x7. I opened it up and it is filled with a lot of clean electronics so it must be much different than the much smaller MKIIIs circuitry. It sounds as much like a tube amp as possible I think. It has a high powered tube in there, not your 12XA7. I spoke to Kevin Shaw he's very helpful guy as well.