Poll: Getting a better DI tone live (without IEMs)

[Pacodelivery]

I've played maybe, conservatively, 600 shows in my life and the only time I've had anywhere CLOSE to the amount of time to do all this in soundcheck is before a multi-night run in theater. Like, I run probably, 15 or 16 patches in a ten song set (and that doesn't include pickup changes, I have a J bass), and my soundcheck is rarely more than two minutes and more than half of that is me playing dry.

I generally run pre-eq out of my Mesa d800.

The CAB M is interesting. Do you use it? Is the idea that you basically model the cab you're using onstage, so that it's fairly close to what you're hearing?

The solution is soundcheck IMHO. If soundcheck is not possible or insufficient, you get what you get!

My impression is people seem to think this is relatively easy to pull off, but it's actually fairly complicated. A lot of work is required before sound check, and you need the ability to be able to tweak your effects super fast during sound check. Unfortunately the situation you are describing is not really conducive to giving you the type of sound check that is really necessary to pull this off perfectly...it takes time!

Some ideas:
-You can and should dial in all of your effects before soundcheck, but in my experience this only gets you in the ballpark. If you change your volume significantly or the the acoustics in the room are drastically different, it's likely that you will need to tweak levels and EQ of each and every effect...you should develop an intuitive feel for it over time.

-Signals should be processed for location and intended purpose. My believe is for optimal results you need different processing for onstage monitoring than the audio tech needs for building the main mix.

A consequence of this: If the effects are perfect for you on stage, they are probably not going to be perfect for the audio tech's needs. This is where sound check comes in. Essentially you go through each of your patches and make sure they sound decent, and the balance from effect to effect falls where you expect it to fall. If things aren't right you make adjustments and/or work out a compromise on the spot.
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-How to dial in your effects:
Part of the problem may be that the effects need to be optimized for either an instrument amp or the PA. They can't be optimize for both because the frequency response is generally very different. If you plan to stop using your amp, that sort of resolves part of the problem as I think you should be able to dial your effects in so they sound decent through a PA without needing a speaker SIM or HPF. This is is providing you have a FRFR system of some type than you can use to tweak your effects.

If you dial the effects in using a traditional amp, it may be a good idea to use some sort of processing to take a bit of the edge off the top end. The problem is there is quite a bit of variation in the way different PAs are tuned. Ideally you should be able to rely on the audio tech to get it right, but under the circumstances that is not always possible.

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-Speaker SIMs and/or LPFs
I have mixed ideas on these as I think a decent audio tech should be able to dial in the sound without needing a SIM. IMHO the closest you're probably going to get to your stage sound is to put a mic on your cab, but that is not going be exact. The mic is very close to the speaker and your ears are far enough that the sound develops and changes. Also, mics don't hear exactly the same way our ears do.

The issue with speaker SIMs is they are often generic, so they are not even an attempt to approximate your stage sound. Of course if you have the ability to do an Impulse Response (IR) of your actual rig, that would be ideal. I know the Two Notes C.A.B. M+ uses IR technology, but I don't think it allows you to do an actual IR of your rig.

-Post EQ DI:
Normally this is my least preferred option as it tends to be noisier the Pre EQ. Also, if you use a traditional tweeterless cab, the Post DI sound can be really bright and ganky. However, if you are running without an amp and just relying on the monitors to hear, I would suggest using a preamp and sending a Post EQ signal so you have some basic tone shaping abilities for your sound in the monitors.

Often the monitors are setup Pre EQ on the mixing console. This allows the audio tech to adjust your sound for the house without impacting how your instrument sound in the monitors. So your sound in the monitors may be flat or perhaps an LPF may be applied. If you do send a Post EQ DI, my advice is get your sound dialed in early and then try to lock it it. Any tweaks you make during the show will throw off all of the mixes derived from you signal. This can be very frustrating for the audio tech, because it's not easy to get the bass dialed in.

FYI, The Tow Notes C.A.B. M+ works as Instrument, Line, or Speaker level and the OMNICabSIM works at Instrument and Line level.

 

[Pacodelivery]

Pretty! Yeah I think the first time I saw that was on the board of the bass player for Riley Green when we opened for him in NC, he sounded great.

I dont really think the HPF/LPF is redundant, the CabSim is only going to FOH if I use it. But maybe if Im using and amp with a HPF it may be. Shaw is just great. Nice fat tone, nice clear mids. A lot of flexibility. Love it. It will displace the MkIII I think. There are a couple of youtube videos that show it well. The Shaw is 7x7. I opened it up and it is filled with a lot of clean electronics so it must be much different than the much smaller MKIIIs circuitry. It sounds as much like a tube amp as possible I think. It has a high powered tube in there, not your 12XA7. I spoke to Kevin Shaw he's very helpful guy as well.
View attachment 4078637

 

[Pacodelivery]

Yeah I've been thinking I need to get back into tube gear. I liked the REDDI when I recorded with it, but I LOVED the Avalon u5 (like @Dirk Diggler suggested) and I've seen that pop up in the live rigs of a couple players (most notably the dude who plays with Brothers Osborne when we opened for them in DE).

I like the wet/dry idea but I'd have to figure out some way of muting the dry sometimes. Like, it'd be cool to have when I'm say using overdrive or octave down but it wouldn't make a lick of sense when I'm sweeping in a chord with my volume pedal into a couple delays and reverbs.

Wow, this is a great question. First, there is no substitute for a great sound engineer. No matter what gear you have, they will can make you shine. Conversely, an incompetent sound engineer can mess you up, even if you have great gear.

While I don’t use as many pedals as the OP, I have found that having some tube in your DI can eliminate some of the brittle sound. I use a REDDI for that reason as my “dry” signal, meaning bass to REDDI to board. For my amp tone, I go bass to VT Deluxe to the effects return in the back of my amp. I use my amp mostly to hear myself onstage vs. generate a specific sound. Because I run the way I do, my “wet” signal can come from micing my cab, from my amp’s DI out or from the VT Deluxe. It really depends on what the sound engineer wants.

 

[FatBoutedGirls]

Biodiesel isn’t the best for end of times prep, you’ll still need methanol, vegetable oil, and sodium/potassium hydroxide sources. It’s more like a lifehack for industrious people with access to waste oil and time.
Draft horses will pull a plow and eat your carrots. Ten acres is enough.

 

[Pacodelivery]

Yeah lol you're right, I just don't know horses very well at all and I LOVE weilding a well tuned BCS walk behind tractor even if it's like wrestling an 800 pound gorilla.

Biodiesel isn’t the best for end of times prep, you’ll still need methanol, vegetable oil, and sodium/potassium hydroxide sources. It’s more like a lifehack for industrious people with access to waste oil and time.
Draft horses will pull a plow and eat your carrots. Ten acres is enough.

 

[Pacodelivery]

I have a question for anyone still following, for the solution that involves an outboard preamp/cabsim, how do people feel about getting a class d head with an fx loop or preamp bypass as opposed to a standalone class d power amp like the baby sumo?

If using a full featured amp is better which is best for this application? If the standalone power amp is better is the baby sumo the right choice?

 

[Al Kraft]

After looking through the posts again, I think one of the limitations you're having to wrestle with is the lack of an effects loop on the D-800. The 800+ or maybe even the new TT-800 (which has a lot of routing options and tube driven DI outs) would IMO be worthwhile options to consider for your needs as I understand them.

One caution I would offer is to not try to use a "speaker output to DI" approach with any of the Mesa SW heads. The class D power section employs a bridge tied load (BTL) topology that I believe will likely result in problems. I suspect that most all class D heads would have a similar issue, however, engineers like @agedhorse can be more helpful than me in providing advice in this area.

 

[Wasnex]

The CAB M is interesting. Do you use it? Is the idea that you basically model the cab you're using onstage, so that it's fairly close to what you're hearing?

I haven't used the C.A.B. M, but I agree it looks interesting and fairly user friendly if hook it up to a computer or iPad. Once you get the feel for the menus, you probably don't need a computer.

...and yes, the idea is to dial it in fairly close to the acoustic sound you get off your rig. \

A couple of videos I have enjoyed:

 

[Pacodelivery]

Maybe he can also give me advice on the draft horses @FatBoutedGirls wants me to buy and feed carrots to.

After looking through the posts again, I think one of the limitations you're having to wrestle with is the lack of an effects loop on the D-800. The 800+ or maybe even the new TT-800 (which has a lot of routing options and tube driven DI outs) would IMO be worthwhile options to consider for your needs as I understand them.

One caution I would offer is to not try to use a "speaker output to DI" approach with any of the Mesa SW heads. The class D power section employs a bridge tied load (BTL) topology that I believe will likely result in problems. I suspect that most all class D heads would have a similar issue, however, engineers like @agedhorse can be more helpful than me in providing advice in this area.

 

[mattj1stc]

Yeah I've been thinking I need to get back into tube gear. I liked the REDDI when I recorded with it, but I LOVED the Avalon u5 (like @Dirk Diggler suggested) and I've seen that pop up in the live rigs of a couple players (most notably the dude who plays with Brothers Osborne when we opened for them in DE).

I like the wet/dry idea but I'd have to figure out some way of muting the dry sometimes. Like, it'd be cool to have when I'm say using overdrive or octave down but it wouldn't make a lick of sense when I'm sweeping in a chord with my volume pedal into a couple delays and reverbs.

I’ve heard good things about the Avalon, but haven’t had the chance to try one out. I also had good results with a Jule Monique, but I had concerns with it being too valuable and not as robust as the REDDI.

Not exactly sure I have any answers on the your exact situation as I don’t use as many pedals. In the end, I am usually willing to trust the sound engineer to make the best result with my two signals relative to the room. In some cases, it’s their home turf, so they should know the space and the PA. At a minimum, they know the PA and have used it many times. Mostly, I’m happy that they allow me to send two signals. While an occasional sound tech is bad, most of them are good - I think that they mostly get a bad reputation. Even if they work for the venue or the headliner, they want the overall show to be good, even for the lowly opening act. I think a lot of us idealize our tones in our heads and don’t think enough about what it takes to make the whole mix sound good for a given space.

 

[Al Kraft]

Maybe he can also give me advice on the draft horses @FatBoutedGirls wants me to buy and feed carrots to.

Believe this or not he is as accomplished with horses as he is with designing bass amps and cabs, running FOH sound for huge touring acts, designing pro sound systems, etc. ...a true renaissance man!

 

[Pacodelivery]

Oh I know! I found that out recently. And I ACTUALLY grow carrots

Believe this or not he is as accomplished with horses as he is with designing bass amps and cabs, running FOH sound for huge touring acts, designing pro sound systems, etc. ...a true renaissance man!

 

[Mosfed]

I've strongly considerd this option, the problem is I have a d800 not a d800+ and unless I'm mistaken you can only do this on the plus model because mine lacks the fx loop. Worth trading up to the plus for this functionality?

this isn’t true - AgedHorse confirmed a while ago that the aux in on the D800 acts like an effects loop return

 

[Pacodelivery]

WOAH. So If I get the Shift Line for instance, I could plug the effected output of it to the aux return and not overload it? and be bypassing the mesa preamp?

this isn’t true - AgedHorse confirmed a while ago that the aux in on the D800 acts like an effects loop return

 

[bdplaid]

Yeah that Shift Line product is very appealing to me, I used to run a tube amp and I'd love to get that sound without the hassel or the weight. The only thing that concerns me is that it seems like it processes your signal quite a bit, that is, it sounds pretty different coming out (as opposed to a hpf/lpf which comparatively processes things less) and so then if I'm using the thru line I'm more or less flying blind because what is coming out of my cabinet isn't what the house is getting so it makes it tricky to dial in sounds. I'll get a little through my monitor but I've also gotta get lead vocal, my vocal, and the lead vocalist's acoustic through there and I have to proritize the vocals because I sing a lot of harmony and some of them are pretty challenging. But maybe I rly should just be getting an amp with a preamp bypass like the d800+.

I used to have a D800 and I forgot it doesn't have an hpf. If it were me I'd upgrade. If you like a tube sound and feel, look at the WD800 or maybe the new TT800. I had a WD 800 and it not only has a tube in it, but you can play with the speed of the amp's response too. And the 6 bands of eq should let you filter out the buzzy top end right in the amp.

Really, have a serious look at the WD 800. At least ask questions over in the Subway group.

 

[Mosfed]

WOAH. So If I get the Shift Line for instance, I could plug the effected output of it to the aux return and not overload it? and be bypassing the mesa preamp?

yes - that’s what I understand. It’s been visited more than once in the last few years since @agedhorse confirmed it. The d-800 aux input can be used as an effects loop return.

 

[el murdoque]

Bass will, in most cases get a line check where the gain is set and that's it. There is one XLR on stage for you and a symmetrical line level signal is expected to go in there.
In your scenario, you should focus on providing a signal into that XLR that more or less works out of the box and with minimal to no tweaking.

Have you thought about providing a mix yourself? You could mic your cab with your own mic (make sure it's quality one, like a Sennheiser 421), add a DI signal, do the processing with your own little mixer you brought for the occasion and feed the XLR the signal.
There is a hefty downside to this: When you tweak too much, you can easily provide a signal that's utterly useless for FOH.

I personally tried a lot before returning to my Sansamp PBDDI, which simply does it for me. I don't always have it last in chain, so I tend to use the amp's DI out set to PRE, but the Sansamp is always on and the baked in filters provide a Signal that will sound okay even when the FOH channel is run without any further processing.

 

[Wasnex]

Bass will, in most cases get a line check where the gain is set and that's it. There is one XLR on stage for you and a symmetrical line level signal is expected to go in there.
In your scenario, you should focus on providing a signal into that XLR that more or less works out of the box and with minimal to no tweaking.

Have you thought about providing a mix yourself? You could mic your cab with your own mic (make sure it's quality one, like a Sennheiser 421), add a DI signal, do the processing with your own little mixer you brought for the occasion and feed the XLR the signal.
There is a hefty downside to this: When you tweak too much, you can easily provide a signal that's utterly useless for FOH.

I personally tried a lot before returning to my Sansamp PBDDI, which simply does it for me. I don't always have it last in chain, so I tend to use the amp's DI out set to PRE, but the Sansamp is always on and the baked in filters provide a Signal that will sound okay even when the FOH channel is run without any further processing.

I do think it's common for the bass to get a quick line check and little more...but in reality most audio techs will spend considerable time dialing in the bass once the entire band start playing, so the line check is not the end of it. Bass players feel a bit burned because they think it is. To be honest, I typically tweak channel EQs for the duration of most shows in order to tailor the sound to the music.

IMHO if someone is going to run effects it is absolutely essential that all of the effects are tweaked so that the levels and tones sound right as the patches are changed. Unfortunately as I mentioned earlier this is not necessarily as easy to do as people think it is.

If you dial your effects in for the frequency response contour of a traditional bass rig, they probably won't work very well for the PA frequency response contour which is very different. Resolving this dilemma is the promise of speaker SIMs.

Also in my experience it's typically necessary to rebalance levels and tweak the EQ of effects if you change your volume significantly. So if you have your effects dialed in for your stage volume, the tone and levels may not work well for the volume used at FOH.

IMHO it's really impossible to run a bunch of effects optimally without an extended sound check and a bit of negotiation between the bass player and audio tech. But if you really learn what is going on and practice, many people can develop a intuitive sense that allows them to sound pretty darn good.

 

[FunkyFlashFive]

This is intriguing. I've run a speaker level DI before (a countryman) but never with a cabsim. Do you do this? Does it work well for you? I looked at that product and it seems geared for guitar.

I've not used exactly this setup, but have done essentially the equivalent with a combination of seperate di and cab sim. Does what it needs to as long as you use an appropriate IR file. The preloaded IR's on the mesa are guitar oriented, but you can load in your own files for bass.

 

[chiphaleonbass]

U5 is just a full sounding bass DI. I cut a record last January with Dave Schools producing and that's what he wanted me to do. I know that John Stirratt from Wilco runs one as his stage DI. It's just a bigger warmer bass signal. Doesn't do the rounded mid thing that a tube pre would, but it's a nice clean alternative

I’ve heard good things about the Avalon, but haven’t had the chance to try one out. I also had good results with a Jule Monique, but I had concerns with it being too valuable and not as robust as the REDDI.