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Poll - Which Monitors are Best
- Thread starter Saint
- Start date
Originally posted by japhy4529
treena foster/girlbassplayer1,
Pick a name and stick with it!jk
Does my name matter?
Paul changed it for me is that okay with you?
Treena
Something else to consider with monitors: your room.
When I moved into my new apartment I noticed my monitors had more bass than my previous room, which wasn't even a room, but more of a closet. A small one at that.
Still, even with the better bass response I still have a hard time figuring out the low end, which sucks, quite frankly, as a bassist. So I scowered the Internet and magazines looking at reviews on newtome monitors and stumbled upon a few articles on control room acoustics.
I could type a few pages (and started to...), but I'll keep this brief and simple.
In my room, my Event 20/20s have no low end, and the reverberations from the walls are annoying (this is in a modest sized apartment bedroom). After some careful Auralex placement (which I'm regretting buying btw, even though I got it for a really good deal) I was able to tame the reverbs to a tolerable level.
Annoying reverbs - kill 'em.
If you've ever heard 20/20s, you know they're pretty bass shy (which sucks as a bassist). I utilized some bookshelfs I didn't know my wife had bought and low and behold (no pun intended) I got some bass out of these things.
Annoying cancellations - kill 'em.
All of a sudden 20/20s don't totally suck anymore.
They only mostly suck.
But at this point I don't think I'd trade them unless it was for a massive upgrade (more than $1500 could buy) because I know how they sound here, and a few other places, with my gear.
When I moved into my new apartment I noticed my monitors had more bass than my previous room, which wasn't even a room, but more of a closet. A small one at that.
Still, even with the better bass response I still have a hard time figuring out the low end, which sucks, quite frankly, as a bassist. So I scowered the Internet and magazines looking at reviews on newtome monitors and stumbled upon a few articles on control room acoustics.
I could type a few pages (and started to...), but I'll keep this brief and simple.
In my room, my Event 20/20s have no low end, and the reverberations from the walls are annoying (this is in a modest sized apartment bedroom). After some careful Auralex placement (which I'm regretting buying btw, even though I got it for a really good deal) I was able to tame the reverbs to a tolerable level.
Annoying reverbs - kill 'em.
If you've ever heard 20/20s, you know they're pretty bass shy (which sucks as a bassist). I utilized some bookshelfs I didn't know my wife had bought and low and behold (no pun intended) I got some bass out of these things.
Annoying cancellations - kill 'em.
All of a sudden 20/20s don't totally suck anymore.
They only mostly suck.
But at this point I don't think I'd trade them unless it was for a massive upgrade (more than $1500 could buy) because I know how they sound here, and a few other places, with my gear.
Acoustics, IMHO are first on the list before even purchasing euipment.
Read this article by my friend Ethan Winer.
Acoustic Treatment and Design for Recording Studios and Listening Rooms
Treena
Read this article by my friend Ethan Winer.
Acoustic Treatment and Design for Recording Studios and Listening Rooms
TreenaOriginally posted by Treena Foster
Acoustics, IMHO are first on the list before even purchasing euipment.
Read this article by my friend Ethan Winer.
Acoustic Treatment and Design for Recording Studios and Listening Rooms
Thanks Treena - that was a great article! I am going to talk to my partner about looking into Bass traps for our control room.
Cheers,
Tom
Another caution about mixdown, if no one else has said it yet. Before you cut your final mix, play it through a car stereo, a stereo with medium to large bookshelf speakers, a CD Walkman with both open and closed headsets, and any other system you can think of. As someone else mentioned, most people don't have the bitchen studio monitors. Our first studio mix came out with too much bass, because it was done over some smallish Tannoys with inadequate bass response. We boosted the bass in the mix until it sounded good on the monitors, but there was too much bottom for anything with good bass response.
Tom you are more then welcome! Hey you can order Ethans traps and tell him I sent you for a discount!
Treena
If all you need are NS10s (see first paragraph), then why do you need to check it on those other speakers (see second paragraph)?
I'm not calling you a rookie. Your knowledge and experience in these matters is far vaster than mine. However, I don't need any experience to tell you that you are contradicting yourself. And, I can rely on my experience with speakers and audio to know that if you get a mix to sound a certain way on NS10s, it will sound quite different on any reasonably hi-fi speaker set. Unless your definition of "great" varies from "little bass" to "boomy bass" and from "accentuated midrange" to "depressed midrange", I don't see how it could sound great on both. So, I don't understand how your first assertion can be true.
The NS10s have an accentuated midrange. People utilize this to put the mids in their face, so that they can work on that band. But they are NOT good all-purpose monitors. Your first post had good advice in it - but a statement like "NS10s are the best" is pretty misleading, IMO.
I trust my room as well as my experience with my NS10's. I don't need to guess what frequencies to boost or cut to get a mix to travel.
How many mixes have you done on NS10's? I
Treena
That's true for most monitors, and the real issue in this discussion IMO. The NS10s are known to be quite non-linear, but on the other hand many engineers are used to mix with them. The key is to know how the mix travels, and more importantly than "best sound" is good definition and separation. Then it's down to experience from mixing many hours on a specific set of monitors. I also think it's crucial to have several different speakers to check you mix on, studio monitors, small hifi speakers and your car stereo. There is probably no such thing as a set of monitors where the mix you produce automatically will travel perfectly to those different systems. At least not in my price range...
Originally posted by FretNoMore
That's true for most monitors, and the real issue in this discussion IMO. The NS10s are known to be quite non-linear, but on the other hand many engineers are used to mix(ing) with them. The key is to know how the mix travels, and more importantly than "best sound" is good definition and separation. Then it's down to experience from mixing many hours on a specific set of monitors. I also think it's crucial to have several different speakers to check you mix on, studio monitors, small hifi speakers and your car stereo. There is probably no such thing as a set of monitors where the mix you produce automatically will travel perfectly to those different systems. At least not in my price range...
Everyone read this again and put a bullet in the head of what could get ugly and ruin an otherwise usefull thread. Thanks.
Originally posted by FretNoMore
That's true for most monitors, and the real issue in this discussion IMO. The NS10s are known to be quite non-linear, but on the other hand many engineers are used to mix with them. The key is to know how the mix travels, and more importantly than "best sound" is good definition and separation. Then it's down to experience from mixing many hours on a specific set of monitors. I also think it's crucial to have several different speakers to check you mix on, studio monitors, small hifi speakers and your car stereo. There is probably no such thing as a set of monitors where the mix you produce automatically will travel perfectly to those different systems. At least not in my price range...
I have to disagree with your statement.....
This is not true at all. NS10's are quite linear, this is why Pro-studio's use them.
NS10's are the Industry Standard all over the world as a reference speaker for close range monitoring in studios. If you get a mix right, that sounds exciting and smooth, on NS10's then that mix will sound brilliant on higher spec'ed speakers...understand? That is why "we" use them.
You need Yamaha NS10's, if only for the fact that your mix will then sound the same in your studio, in the mastering studio, and then in the A&R Department of that Record company you are hoping to do a deal with. They will also add a 'professional' air to your set-up.
I am not here to argue or to sell NS10's but to help educate others on Pro studio sound.
Well, I'm not getting into any kind of contest over this. I don't own NS10s myself, I'm just repeating what has been reported over and over. One example is Invalid Link Removed:
"The archetypal studio nearfield monitor, Yamaha's NS10M, is well known to have (put politely) a 'characterful' tonal balance. The general consensus seems to be that it is uneven through the mid-range and too bright at the top (hence the commonly employed trick of hanging tissue paper over the tweeters to calm it down)."
It's beside the point though, any speaker - NS10 or other - will color the sound so you must learn how to mix with them. I know my cheap(ish) Tannoy Reveals do sound very different from my HiFi and car stereo for instance. The SoS comment above (and their discussion about studio image) only proves the point that it's not the monitors that count - it's your experience using them. Your point about using the same monitors as those you cooperate with is of course also valid.
Over and out. My final comments. Peace.
"The archetypal studio nearfield monitor, Yamaha's NS10M, is well known to have (put politely) a 'characterful' tonal balance. The general consensus seems to be that it is uneven through the mid-range and too bright at the top (hence the commonly employed trick of hanging tissue paper over the tweeters to calm it down)."
It's beside the point though, any speaker - NS10 or other - will color the sound so you must learn how to mix with them. I know my cheap(ish) Tannoy Reveals do sound very different from my HiFi and car stereo for instance. The SoS comment above (and their discussion about studio image) only proves the point that it's not the monitors that count - it's your experience using them. Your point about using the same monitors as those you cooperate with is of course also valid.
Over and out. My final comments. Peace.
Originally posted by FretNoMore
Well, I'm not getting into any kind of contest over this. I don't own NS10s myself, I'm just repeating what has been reported over and over. One example is Invalid Link Removed:
"The archetypal studio nearfield monitor, Yamaha's NS10M, is well known to have (put politely) a 'characterful' tonal balance. The general consensus seems to be that it is uneven through the mid-range and too bright at the top (hence the commonly employed trick of hanging tissue paper over the tweeters to calm it down)."
It's beside the point though, any speaker - NS10 or other - will color the sound so you must learn how to mix with them. I know my cheap(ish) Tannoy Reveals do sound very different from my HiFi and car stereo for instance. The SoS comment above (and their discussion about studio image) only proves the point that it's not the monitors that count - it's your experience using them. Your point about using the same monitors as those you cooperate with is of course also valid.
Over and out. My final comments. Peace.
Great Article! I have read it before!
Agreed -100%
My $.02......
Let me start by saying that noone here is really "wrong"....I have been a professional recording engineer for nearly 25 years and in that time I have mixed on everything that you can name...I have worked in shi**y 1 roome studios with no light and no REAL gear to speak of and made GREAT records...I have worked in MAJOR multimillion dollar studios like Record Plant, Power Station, Chung King, Hit Factory.....you get the idea (if you don't know these places I apologize for name dropping but I want to illustrate the point)...and made what i think are shi**y records and in all fairness GREAT records as well. The session itself can influence the outcome more than the gear....
I agree with the statement that Treena makes about the NS-10 as being a "standard". I also agree with the statement that they are not a very "good" standard. However, I was one of those guys who used to travel with over $150,000 worth of outboard gear and a pair of Meyer HD-1's AND a pair of Genelec 1031's AND always made SURE that there was an Auratone mono (I would bring my own if necessary) AND a pair of NS-10 available!! The reason is simple...my stuff hyped up a session and I knew how they would translate because I would mix on them at least 6 hours or more per day everyday....BUT I also knew that if I got a really happening mix on a crappy sounding set of NS-10's and if you could just HEAR everything in a balanced mix in an auratone (read here TV)then I earned my money (I was never cheap!!)and my client was ALMOST always pleased...
(As a sidenote.. one of the best kept secrets of getting a great mix is to set up a mono signal on an auratone and turn the volume down as low as it will possibly go where you still hear things and LISTEN.....if you HEAR ALL of the instruments (EVEN the kick and bass, though it will not have that kick you in the chest punch...)I GUARANTEE you that you will have a mix that will be BALANCED through nearly everything you play it through. This works the same way through ANY playback source that you put your mix through....my advice is simple do NOT turn the volume up after you think you have a good mix... turn it DOWN as low as you can get it and still hear anything....try this put on a pair of headphones, a boom box, crappy stereo, great stereo, whatever, put in your favorite professional CD, turn down the volume and LISTEN....you WILL hear everything....now try the same thing with your own mixes..................................WOW! This really works...)
The key here is not is the NS-10 a crappy monitor...IT IS...no one will dispute that when you compare it to some of the other stuff out there, but will the mix you get on a pair of NS-10's translate well? YES it will...do I recommend that you buy a set of NS-10's.........NO not necessarily....UNLESS you are working in a top of the line no compromise, PRO level studio...in which case you had BETTER have a pair of them or your clients will start asking you for them. (the new model is NOT all that bad, I have used them and I can get a good mix on them)......BUT I know what I am working with.....
That is the key....I do a LOT of live to 2 track recording where I am mixing in a live environment a LOT of times on a stage or under a stage with the band cranked...I mix on an old pair of AKG 270 (circa 1992) you can not find as good a headphone anymore in my opinion....but I have used them for 11 years and I KNOW when I stick a DAT, Mini disk, or CD into a the cheapest, nastiest, piece of junk playback source and it will sound like a good balanced mix...this is what it is all about guys....a good balanced mix....go out and buy a copy of Steely Dan's new album "Everything Must Go"...Elliott Scheiner did the whole thing and I can't find a heavy reverb or delay or drastice EQ ANYWHERE on the whole friggin thing........................................makes me realize that I have spent ENTIRELY too much money on Reverbs and other gear....it is a clean, balanced, simple mix that is nothing short of amazing....whether you like the music or not is not the issue....listen to the mix!
I do apologize for ranting but I know that in my own experience at the end of the day it is all about what YOU the engieer are comfortable with....Christ, I did a 9 piece band the other night at a festival with 3 stages (LOUD) I did a live to 2 track mix direct to an Alesis 9600...my "monitors"....a pair of Shure E-5 (my own)in ear monitors....it turned out so well that the label is planning on releasing this almost as is with some minor touch up that they have asked me to do during mastering.......my point... it does not matter if you are comfortable with your own ability and trust that what YOU hear you can TRANSLATE to other systems by doing your mixing in a matter that is comfortable to you......
Stepping off of my soapbox and back to the original question....I really like the Mackie's myself believe it or not....I now own and use the 824's almost exclusively because they are truly as close to ruler flat as anything I have ever tried. You can get a pair of them for about $1,400 and use the difference to get an auratone....that is of course, just my opinion.......
Thanks to all of you who read this post Happy Mixing!!
T
Let me start by saying that noone here is really "wrong"....I have been a professional recording engineer for nearly 25 years and in that time I have mixed on everything that you can name...I have worked in shi**y 1 roome studios with no light and no REAL gear to speak of and made GREAT records...I have worked in MAJOR multimillion dollar studios like Record Plant, Power Station, Chung King, Hit Factory.....you get the idea (if you don't know these places I apologize for name dropping but I want to illustrate the point)...and made what i think are shi**y records and in all fairness GREAT records as well. The session itself can influence the outcome more than the gear....
I agree with the statement that Treena makes about the NS-10 as being a "standard". I also agree with the statement that they are not a very "good" standard. However, I was one of those guys who used to travel with over $150,000 worth of outboard gear and a pair of Meyer HD-1's AND a pair of Genelec 1031's AND always made SURE that there was an Auratone mono (I would bring my own if necessary) AND a pair of NS-10 available!! The reason is simple...my stuff hyped up a session and I knew how they would translate because I would mix on them at least 6 hours or more per day everyday....BUT I also knew that if I got a really happening mix on a crappy sounding set of NS-10's and if you could just HEAR everything in a balanced mix in an auratone (read here TV)then I earned my money (I was never cheap!!)and my client was ALMOST always pleased...
(As a sidenote.. one of the best kept secrets of getting a great mix is to set up a mono signal on an auratone and turn the volume down as low as it will possibly go where you still hear things and LISTEN.....if you HEAR ALL of the instruments (EVEN the kick and bass, though it will not have that kick you in the chest punch...)I GUARANTEE you that you will have a mix that will be BALANCED through nearly everything you play it through. This works the same way through ANY playback source that you put your mix through....my advice is simple do NOT turn the volume up after you think you have a good mix... turn it DOWN as low as you can get it and still hear anything....try this put on a pair of headphones, a boom box, crappy stereo, great stereo, whatever, put in your favorite professional CD, turn down the volume and LISTEN....you WILL hear everything....now try the same thing with your own mixes..................................WOW! This really works...)
The key here is not is the NS-10 a crappy monitor...IT IS...no one will dispute that when you compare it to some of the other stuff out there, but will the mix you get on a pair of NS-10's translate well? YES it will...do I recommend that you buy a set of NS-10's.........NO not necessarily....UNLESS you are working in a top of the line no compromise, PRO level studio...in which case you had BETTER have a pair of them or your clients will start asking you for them. (the new model is NOT all that bad, I have used them and I can get a good mix on them)......BUT I know what I am working with.....
That is the key....I do a LOT of live to 2 track recording where I am mixing in a live environment a LOT of times on a stage or under a stage with the band cranked...I mix on an old pair of AKG 270 (circa 1992) you can not find as good a headphone anymore in my opinion....but I have used them for 11 years and I KNOW when I stick a DAT, Mini disk, or CD into a the cheapest, nastiest, piece of junk playback source and it will sound like a good balanced mix...this is what it is all about guys....a good balanced mix....go out and buy a copy of Steely Dan's new album "Everything Must Go"...Elliott Scheiner did the whole thing and I can't find a heavy reverb or delay or drastice EQ ANYWHERE on the whole friggin thing........................................makes me realize that I have spent ENTIRELY too much money on Reverbs and other gear....it is a clean, balanced, simple mix that is nothing short of amazing....whether you like the music or not is not the issue....listen to the mix!
I do apologize for ranting but I know that in my own experience at the end of the day it is all about what YOU the engieer are comfortable with....Christ, I did a 9 piece band the other night at a festival with 3 stages (LOUD) I did a live to 2 track mix direct to an Alesis 9600...my "monitors"....a pair of Shure E-5 (my own)in ear monitors....it turned out so well that the label is planning on releasing this almost as is with some minor touch up that they have asked me to do during mastering.......my point... it does not matter if you are comfortable with your own ability and trust that what YOU hear you can TRANSLATE to other systems by doing your mixing in a matter that is comfortable to you......
Stepping off of my soapbox and back to the original question....I really like the Mackie's myself believe it or not....I now own and use the 824's almost exclusively because they are truly as close to ruler flat as anything I have ever tried. You can get a pair of them for about $1,400 and use the difference to get an auratone....that is of course, just my opinion.......
Thanks to all of you who read this post Happy Mixing!!
T
ummm. The ones YOU know best. The trick is that you have to be able to extrapolate from what your monitor's tell you, to how your recording will sound to the rest of the world...
I'm going to have to try the auralex though. that is something I don't currently do and it sounds like a real good idea.
I'm going to have to try the auralex though. that is something I don't currently do and it sounds like a real good idea.
They are called auratones and I mentioned them in my earlier posts. Here's what they look like.
Treena
