• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Poly octave stranglehold? (or why aren't POG / OC3 types in MULTI EFFECT pedals?)

FVZZ

Guest
May 6, 2015
16
4
45
Hi,
Being how pedal technology and DSP simulation has been advancing at breakneck speed over the past 10 years, why isn't there a single multi-fx unit that can do polyphonic octaves? there's some seriously high-tech gear out there: Zoom's MultiStomp which packs an entire zoom multi-effects into a shrunk stompbox unit. There's Line 6's Amplifi, a full range amp with Bluetooth and DSP that simulates virtually any effect and amp ever created. Then there are vessel stompboxes like Digitech's iStomp or IK's iRig Stomp which are app-driven housings controlled by iOS devices. And yet, not a single one of them does polyphonic octaves.

What bugles me is BOSS was the pioneer, the Super Octave OC3 was the first polyphonic octave generator in the market released in 2004. it only made sense that Japanese giant Roland would design this technology since they had been at the cutting edge of digital modelling for the past 20 years. However, it took Electro Harmonix a year of (presumably reverse engineering) to jump into that area with the POG in 2005. They shrunk it down in 2007 with the MicroPOG. 2009 saw the release of the POG2; the HOG came out in 2011 and the unreal HOG2 in 2013. Their latest achievement is the competitively priced Pitch fork. Meanwhile, BOSS clutched to their venerable OC3. EHX became torchbearers and rightfully so, they pushed the concept to the limits and reaped big rewards, they sized up the octave pedal market with a vast variety of pedals catering to all budgets.

BOSS' latest top of the line units are the GT100 and GT001. As it turns out, their pitch shifting capabilities are proper (equal to the PS6 harmonist), but their polyphonic performance sucks big time. it's just terrible. Even it's octave shifter is a let down compared to the OC3 released 10 years prior. the GT100 exhibits all the documented issues of pitch shifters: aliasing, warbling, tone stepping, and latency (which is most apparent when a Bass guitar is used). Though it's an outstanding multi-FX, it's not just a bad octave pedal, it simply isn't polyphonic. Considering their track history, its a mayor disappointment. Digitech's RP360? same issue: new DSP engine, same old crap pitchshifting, in spite of their embrace of polyphony in 2014 when the Whammy V/DT/Drop were released.

Some people might argue EHX is a "true" analog pedal maker, while BOSS is all about digital modelling, and they would be wrong. What isn't well known is every single polyphonic octave pedal EHX has made since their 2005 debut runs on a DSP chip, the POG and MicroPOG where running on Freescale DSP56364 (or similar). DSP means Digital Signal Processor, which is exactly what BOSS' COSM, KORG's REMS or Digitech's DNA/2 are. EHX simply didn't christened it nor they go around telling and 'boasting' about it, so they retain an 'analog stompbox' vibe while the others do not.

So why doesn't BOSS, ZOOM, KORG, Digitech, IK or Line6 include true polyphonic effects in their DSP-based multi-effects? did EHX patent the algorithms? is there really a stranglehold on the poly-octave market or is it simply that the numbers aren't there, and the market is so niche, big corps see no incentive to jump in?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Driven Crane
I would have thought that the Digitech multis may have a half decent effect built in seeing as they have the Drop and Whammy pedals. Can anyone vouch for those?
Actually, yeah, Digitech's Whammy V (version 5), DT and The Drop are fully polyphonic since 2014; they finally developed a capable DSP engine. Makes me realize that EHX's code or algorithms couldn't possibly be copyrighted. On the other hand, their RP series multi-effect units were always inferior to BOSS or Zoom but I wouldn't know if their new RP360 might have polyphonic shifters and octavers in it's FX arsenal, makes me curious.
 
The POG is the best at this trick. then take your pick regarding the pog2 hog hog2 pitchfork

Taurus makes a great sounding pedal but opinions on how well it tracks are all over the board

Mooer has a great pedal for guitar but I don't think it sounds that great on bass

Walrus audio is supposed to have an octave pedal coming in the next few months but I've not understood what features it will have but I'm hopeful

I keep asking strymon to consider making s polyphonic octave pedal ala a pog2 but I have no pull there but I really think they have a great shot at making a super great version

I love ehx I love them but something about the POG line sounds off to me
But with that said, depending on what the market offers I may go with a POG or pog2
 
I love ehx I love them but something about the POG line sounds off to me
But with that said, depending on what the market offers I may go with a POG or pog2
I'd agree; besides, they are always advertising it as an organ simulator, as if that was a great achievement (maybe). Eventide Makes a $499 shifter, yet it's got far more tracking and warbling issues than the cheaper 2011 Hog:

Digitech's Whammy V/DT is the only other alternative to EHX's HOG/POG (hodgepodge?), but it's far more limited and not that much cheaper, considering a HOG2 nets you a "free" EHX Next Step EXP pedal. Then there's the venerable BOSS OC3 whose poly mode rivals EHX's stuff, but only 1 octave down. it'd be a one-trick pony except it's got a distortion and OC2 circuits built into the darn thing (kudos to the nameless engineer behind the OC3).

All multi-effects by these same manufacturers suck balls compared to these stompboxes (built by them too!). this just in: Digitech's RP360 sucks at polyphony, just like BOSS' GT100.
 
Last edited:
There isn't a single one

Right, I think there are different algorithms for pitch shifting. Many are based on the Phase Vocoder approach, I don't think there's a patent on that. The devil is in the details, in the fine tuning of the algo for a specific application.

I don't think there's a digital pitch shifter tuned specifically for bass - get busy, manufacturers!
 
the new boss unit might achieve this.

if the mod duo lives up to its hype then it can achieve this.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

i have been on the same quest. at this point, i am waiting to see how the boss unit works before i sell my axe fx and other gear to get the fx8.
 
The Fractal Axe-Fx units do poly-octave effects, and the FX8 is an effects-only floor unit version of those. If it can do all the same effects stuff the rackmount modelling versions can do, then it'll do poly-octaves, too. It isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, but it's out there.

i haven't tried it on the axe fx ii, but the axe fx ultra pitch shift is great before you get to the e string on the bass. from what i hear, the axe fx will have the same pitch effect as the other units. i really hope they improve the tracking for low notes with the pitch shifter.
 
i haven't tried it on the axe fx ii, but the axe fx ultra pitch shift is great before you get to the e string on the bass. from what i hear, the axe fx will have the same pitch effect as the other units. i really hope they improve the tracking for low notes with the pitch shifter.

Really? Huh. I've got an Afx II Mk 2, and I don't really have problems with the E unless I get a little crazy with the harmonies. It does get wobbly below that, though, and isn't reliable at all down at B. I don't really use much octave down, though, so maybe that's it. I mostly use it for adding a 5th + and octave up.
 
Really? Huh. I've got an Afx II Mk 2, and I don't really have problems with the E unless I get a little crazy with the harmonies. It does get wobbly below that, though, and isn't reliable at all down at B. I don't really use much octave down, though, so maybe that's it. I mostly use it for adding a 5th + and octave up.

maybe it has been updated between the ultra and the ii mk2 to improve the pitch change. i usually use an octave and +5 above the octave.
 
I have a POG2, BWhammy, OC2, have had the OC3 and I have the Zoom ms60b and B1Xon offerings. I actually dig the OC2 sim in the 60b. I think it does a pretty good job of mimicking an analogue octave. NOt the best, but pretty good. For me, I use all of them for different reasons. I know some use pitch shifting for very specific parts and need a very specific type of sound/tool. That is why I think pitch shifting is among the the effects that were most picky about IMO.

But you do raise a great question. I've often wondered that myself, why aren't there more companies going places with the octave/pitch shifting? It would be pretty sweet to have one pedal do all the stuff I use three, two of them being quite large, pedals for now. I mean, some do but man, some of them really are poor attempted and quality. The Zooms are ones I don't use in my live rig, but at home. Ive seen that gag pedal someone did for the Eventide octave. I nearly s*at. I dont usually spend that much on one pedal normally, but I think I would if they did one. SA too. I think SA would be able to pull it off in spades. But maybe EHX does have something proprietary in their circuit. I could see how that could make it difficult for some companies to delve into certain areas. But man, I really wish SA would get on that! And a preamp sim ;) @rsmith601 :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Driven Crane