Poly octave stranglehold? (or why aren't POG / OC3 types in MULTI EFFECT pedals?)

[recnsci]

...it took Electro Harmonix a year of (presumably reverse engineering) to jump into that area with the POG in 2005.

Presumption is mother of all f*ckups.
Electronic Music Tech Hero: David Cockerell – The Halls of Valhalla

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Actually, yeah, Digitech's Whammy V (version 5), DT and The Drop are fully polyphonic since 2014; they finally developed a capable DSP engine. Makes me realize that EHX's code or algorithms couldn't possibly be copyrighted. On the other hand, their RP series multi-effect units were always inferior to BOSS or Zoom but I wouldn't know if their new RP360 might have polyphonic shifters and octavers in it's FX arsenal, makes me curious.

You can copyright code. Algorithms can (depending on location) be patented, not copyrighted. But yes, EHX could have done both and Digitech could be using a different algorithm (and al most certainly different code).

Or maybe there is open source code that does the job.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

What bugles me is BOSS was the pioneer, the Super Octave OC3 was the first polyphonic octave generator in the market released in 2004.

Generating octaves is a different task from generating a specified interval (it's simpler).

Then there is temperament and intonation for non-octave changes to consider.

 

[FVZZ]

Did you notice that Electro Harmonix quietly raised the Pitchforks price from 131 to 158 dollars.....It was underpriced but still......

EHX be feeling a little entitled

Right, I think there are different algorithms for pitch shifting. Many are based on the Phase Vocoder approach, I don't think there's a patent on that. The devil is in the details, in the fine tuning of the algo for a specific application.

I agree, hard to believe patents are getting in the way. I would call EHX's algorithm a real-time transpose sampler. Any DAW does it, Ableton Live has a transpose assigned to every wave sample, I think it can go from -48 to +48 semitones. It isn't CPU taxing whatsoever.

Really? Huh. I've got an Afx II Mk 2, and I don't really have problems with the E unless I get a little crazy with the harmonies. It does get wobbly below that, though, and isn't reliable at all down at B. I don't really use much octave down, though, so maybe that's it. I mostly use it for adding a 5th + and octave up.

the HOG/POG can. I can tune in D, or drop down to C with perfect tracking; a HOG will do 2 octaves down, 4 octaves up, two 5ths and a 3rd, flawlessy. I'd say it's safe to assert it's better than the Axe FX pitch shifter. Also, 10 times cheaper.

the new boss unit might achieve this.
if the mod duo lives up to its hype then it can achieve this.
i have been on the same quest. at this point, i am waiting to see how the boss unit works before i sell my axe fx and other gear to get the fx8.

NICE! the SY300 looks like a hybrid between a GR55 and an ME70, hands-on, with no GK3 pickup. it seems to have a fairly advanced DSP that samples the signal with no lag and ...synthesizes it? too bad all videos online feature cheese presets and smudgy sound layers, no way to know for sure how it handles octave and pitch-shifting:
the M.O.D. seems like the future is now. A few years ago, a device called V-Machine came out, It was supposed to be a standalone VST vessel, it would run PC synths without a PC. It turned out to be buggy and limited and only SMP-sanctioned VSTs were supported. it flopped because of that. the MOD seems to be doing the same for multi-effect pedals but since it's open and community supported, any and everything will be possible. It's hard to tell if the pitch-shifter installed on this demo is polyphonic or not, (although the harmonizer sure wouldn't be): [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I have a POG2, BWhammy,
But you do raise a great question. I've often wondered that myself, why aren't there more companies going places with the octave/pitch shifting? It would be pretty sweet to have one pedal do all the stuff I use three, two of them being quite large, pedals for now. I mean, some do but man, some of them really are poor attempted and quality. The Zooms are ones I don't use in my live rig, but at home. Ive seen that gag pedal someone did for the Eventide octave. I nearly s*at. I dont usually spend that much on one pedal normally, but I think I would if they did one. SA too. I think SA would be able to pull it off in spades.@rsmith601

Agreed, my original intent was to find a multi-effect pedal that had a proper polyphonic shifter. As of right now, I have to lug around a pedalboard twice the size of my BOSS GT8 to accommodate a HOG2, some midi gear and other pedals to split, loop and rectify signals, all of which I wanted to avoid with the aid of a GT100 (which turned out to be a disappointment, went back to the store and I'm down with the GT8 ...once again). BTW, what's SA done lately worth checking out?

Presumption is mother of all f*ckups.
Electronic Music Tech Hero: David Cockerell – The Halls of Valhalla

dude, awesome article. so synth veteran David Cockerell is the genius behind the HOG/POG. Takes a coding wizard to do as much with these tiny, crappy DSP chips, what's harder to believe is how these pedals do so much with only 16 bit FFT (sounds to me like Super Nintendo era processing (terrible understatement)). So then, would you imagine what freelance developers might do with the MOD DUO that runs on a 1.8GHZ processor and 2gb of RAM? BTW, found this cool article about FFT through 3 decades: Invalid Link Removed

Generating octaves is a different task from generating a specified interval (it's simpler).
Then there is temperament and intonation for non-octave changes to consider.

that's exactly why EHX octavers are so good, or the BOSS OC3 for that matter. all they do is sample and transpose in fixed intervals: octave up or octave down, fifth, 3rd; which is similar to what electric organs did in the 60s with the multiple layered harmonics. other manufacturers excel at intelligent pitchshifting (like Eventide), which is inherently monophonic. the BOSS GT8 itself has a near perfect harmonizer (like the PS6), it's even got smart scales and a programmable sequencer. What eludes me is their reasoning for not including the OC3's algorithm inside the GT series and making the octave shifter FX polyphonic.

 

[gregmon79]

EHX be feeling a little entitled


I agree, hard to believe patents are getting in the way. I would call EHX's algorithm a real-time transpose sampler. Any DAW does it, Ableton Live has a transpose assigned to every wave sample, I think it can go from -48 to +48 semitones. It isn't CPU taxing whatsoever.


the HOG/POG can. I can tune in D, or drop down to C with perfect tracking; a HOG will do 2 octaves down, 4 octaves up, two 5ths and a 3rd, flawlessy. I'd say it's safe to assert it's better than the Axe FX pitch shifter. Also, 10 times cheaper.



NICE! the SY300 looks like a hybrid between a GR55 and an ME70, hands-on, with no GK3 pickup. it seems to have a fairly advanced DSP that samples the signal with no lag and ...synthesizes it? too bad all videos online feature cheese presets and smudgy sound layers, no way to know for sure how it handles octave and pitch-shifting:
the M.O.D. seems like the future is now. A few years ago, a device called V-Machine came out, It was supposed to be a standalone VST vessel, it would run PC synths without a PC. It turned out to be buggy and limited and only SMP-sanctioned VSTs were supported. it flopped because of that. the MOD seems to be doing the same for multi-effect pedals but since it's open and community supported, any and everything will be possible. It's hard to tell if the pitch-shifter installed on this demo is polyphonic or not, (although the harmonizer sure wouldn't be): [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


Agreed, my original intent was to find a multi-effect pedal that had a proper polyphonic shifter. As of right now, I have to lug around a pedalboard twice the size of my BOSS GT8 to accommodate a HOG2, some midi gear and other pedals to split, loop and rectify signals, all of which I wanted to avoid with the aid of a GT100 (which turned out to be a disappointment, went back to the store and I'm down with the GT8 ...once again). BTW, what's SA done lately worth checking out?


dude, awesome article. so synth veteran David Cockerell is the genius behind the HOG/POG. Takes a coding wizard to do as much with these tiny, crappy DSP chips, what's harder to believe is how these pedals do so much with only 16 bit FFT (sounds to me like Super Nintendo era processing (terrible understatement)). So then, would you imagine what freelance developers might do with the MOD DUO that runs on a 1.8GHZ processor and 2gb of RAM?


that's exactly why EHX octavers are so good, or the BOSS OC3 for that matter. all they do is sample and transpose in fixed intervals: octave up or octave down, fifth, 3rd; which is similar to what electric organs did in the 60s with the multiple layered harmonics.

IMO, SA has done a ton the last couple years. Their whole entire SB2 line rocks. Really really good stuff for the price and what they are. They are releasing a new line, the One Series, this summer or winter I think that are supposed to be a step up as far as integration with MIDI/smart phones and stuff like that. Still no octave pedals to speak of. But either way, they seem to always be working on something new and exciting. I was supposed to get a Tour Box of a few of the One Series pedals but its been like 5 months maybe since they sent them out so I have no clue if I ever will get to try them.

 

[Marial]

The Fractal Axe-Fx units do poly-octave effects, and the FX8 is an effects-only floor unit version of those. If it can do all the same effects stuff the rackmount modelling versions can do, then it'll do poly-octaves, too. It isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, but it's out there.

LOL, not even in the same galactic neighborhood of cheap.

 

[RunBeerRun]

Beginning players aren't inspired by the expensive stuff because...they can't afford them! And they do not grow up into professionals because of this.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

that's exactly why EHX octavers are so good, or the BOSS OC3 for that matter. all they do is sample and transpose in fixed intervals: octave up or octave down, fifth, 3rd; which is similar to what electric organs did in the 60s with the multiple layered harmonics. other manufacturers excel at intelligent pitchshifting (like Eventide), which is inherently monophonic. the BOSS GT8 itself has a near perfect harmonizer (like the PS6), it's even got smart scales and a programmable sequencer. What eludes me is their reasoning for not including the OC3's algorithm inside the GT series and making the octave shifter FX polyphonic.

I am guessing electric organs used natural ratios you can generate easily from physical phenomena such as 5:4 to generate a major third, but those are off from equal temperament, which is what I was getting at. 2:1 is no problem, a pure octave. 1.259:1 is a bit tricker with natural phenomena to stay in tune.

If the POG is doing true thirds, then given the ratios, that is pretty impressive polyphonically with a low power DSP as suggested.

 

[Adamixoye]

I'd agree; besides, they are always advertising it as an organ simulator, as if that was a great achievement (maybe). Eventide Makes a $499 shifter, yet it's got far more tracking and warbling issues than the cheaper 2011 Hog:

Digitech's Whammy V/DT is the only other alternative to EHX's HOG/POG (hodgepodge?), but it's far more limited and not that much cheaper, considering a HOG2 nets you a "free" EHX Next Step EXP pedal. Then there's the venerable BOSS OC3 whose poly mode rivals EHX's stuff, but only 1 octave down. it'd be a one-trick pony except it's got a distortion and OC2 circuits built into the darn thing (kudos to the nameless engineer behind the OC3).

All multi-effects by these same manufacturers suck balls compared to these stompboxes (built by them too!). this just in: Digitech's RP360 sucks at polyphony, just like BOSS' GT100.

I've never owned a HOG, but I've always felt that comparison was unfair to the Pitchfactor. The Pitchfactor works great for me except for when I'm throwing something odd at it. That video is at least 2-3 firmware versions ago, I would estimate. Plus the Pitchfactor does all sorts of things that the HOG can't---for example, the Pitchfactor can shift by any semi-tone interval, the HOG cannot.

 

[willbassyeah]

i thought just recently alot of pedal manufacturer is getting more and more into the pog territory,
I do agree though whenever all these pedals are introduced to the market the first thought everyone has is "how does the tracking compared to the pog". The pog is the fender p of the pitchshifting pedal

EQD Pitch bay and organizer
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Trex Quint machine
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Adamixoye]

i thought just recently alot of pedal manufacturer is getting more and more into the pog territory,
I do agree though whenever all these pedals are introduced to the market the first thought everyone has is "how does the tracking compared to the pog". The pog is the fender p of the pitchshifting pedal

EQD Pitch bay and organizer
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Trex Quint machine
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Every demo I've heard of the Pitch Bay sounds like it has a vibrato on it.

 

[rsmith601]

Doing a polyphonic pitch detection is not easy. We got about half way done with the algorithm work and then calculated what it would take to finish creating the ideal product......and how much we could sell it for. The numbers were not attractive. I suspect we will get back to it again, but there are other very cool things we want to do first.

 

[moishelichtfuss]

I'd agree; besides, they are always advertising it as an organ simulator, as if that was a great achievement (maybe).

I'd say yes here. I mainly use my Pog2 for organy atmspherics and would love to replace it with somethin smaller, yet nothin I've tried so far (Earthquaker Organizer, Eventide H9 pitchfactor algorithms) sounds like it.

 

[FVZZ]

IMO, SA has done a ton the last couple years. Their whole entire SB2 line rocks. Really really good stuff for the price and what they are...

heck yeah, took your word and peaked around and a couple shinny things caught my eyes (or ears) big time. The Soundblox 2 Multiwave, some cutting edge fuzz right there, it's got an octave generator to boot —though I wonder if it's polyphonic. And then... the Hot Hand 3, what a killer app.

...the Pitchfactor does all sorts of things that the HOG can't---for example, the Pitchfactor can shift by any semi-tone interval, the HOG cannot.

true, in a way, it'd be like apple and oranges. Then again, since polyphony is out, what can the Pitchfactor do that I can't replicate with the dual smart harmonizers, pitch shifters and programmable arpeggiator of the GT8 —at half the price of Eventide's?

Every demo I've heard of the Pitch Bay sounds like it has a vibrato on it.

...I do agree though whenever all these pedals are introduced to the market the first thought everyone has is "how does the tracking compared to the pog". The pog is the fender p of the pitchshifting pedal
EQD Pitch bay and organizer / Trex Quint machine

The Pitch Bay exhibits too much oscillation, it's what Adamixoye refers to as vibrato, what happens is the DSP sampling rate isn't fast enough to pass unnoticed, specially in the upward transposing. That's an issue that all BOSS GT multi-effects exhibit when the faux-polyphonic shifting is engaged. The Trex is cool though, it owns the micro-POG with a 5th above! and costs about as much. I'd pick it over the micropog (if it had a direct output...).

Doing a polyphonic pitch detection is not easy. We got about half way done with the algorithm work and then calculated what it would take to finish creating the ideal product......and how much we could sell it for. The numbers were not attractive. I suspect we will get back to it again, but there are other very cool things we want to do first.

cool things like the Hot Hand? it´s nifty. you guys got more gadgets like that? Jesse Remignanti is a wizard.

I'd say yes here. I mainly use my Pog2 for organy atmspherics and would love to replace it with somethin smaller, yet nothin I've tried so far (Earthquaker Organizer, Eventide H9 pitchfactor algorithms) sounds like it.

the Trex Quint sounds like a good choice. it doesn't feature 2 octaves up or 2 down (which I find kind of useless anyway) but it does have a 5th, which you'd only be able to find on the bigger and pricier HOG2.

 

[FVZZ]

Beginning players aren't inspired by the expensive stuff because...they can't afford them! And they do not grow up into professionals because of this.

good point. I can't recall a single artist who made a name of himself -or herself- with expensive pro gear (ok maybe I do, Mike Oldfield, Wendy Carlos, Gary Numan wrote Replicas in a $3,000 moog synth back in 79 (albeit borrowed from a studio (rented by the label and not him, which kind of supports the argument))). however, up-and-comers aren't even their target audience so, there's that. Moreover, I bet there's nothing whatsoever that a $2,000 Axe FX rack can do that I can't replicate decently with a $200 BOSS GT8.

 

[Adamixoye]

true, in a way, it'd be like apple and oranges. Then again, since polyphony is out, what can the Pitchfactor do that I can't replicate with the dual smart harmonizers, pitch shifters and programmable arpeggiator of the GT8 —at half the price of Eventide's?

Not all of the Pitchfactor's effects are monophonic. Only the Diatonic algorithm is specifically listed as monophonic in the manual. Pitchflex is polyphonic to my ears---you can uptune or downtune a guitar, and you only get "warbling" if you throw a weird chord at it.

You can approximate some of what the Pitchfactor does with lesser multi-FX units. But I have owned those units before and the Pitchfactor does some things they can't, and it's not even close.

 

[gregmon79]

Well, check out mike kerrs setup from Royal blood. He uses a hormonist and two POG2's. Love his sound.

 

[basslayer]

just found out about this one. no manual out yet and line6 hasn't released an actual effects listing. could be the answer to polyphonic pitch shifting.

 

[Nephilymbass]

Hi,
Being how pedal technology and DSP simulation has been advancing at breakneck speed over the past 10 years, why isn't there a single multi-fx unit that can do polyphonic octaves? there's some seriously high-tech gear out there: Zoom's MultiStomp which packs an entire zoom multi-effects into a shrunk stompbox unit. There's Line 6's Amplifi, a full range amp with Bluetooth and DSP that simulates virtually any effect and amp ever created. Then there are vessel stompboxes like Digitech's iStomp or IK's iRig Stomp which are app-driven housings controlled by iOS devices. And yet, not a single one of them does polyphonic octaves.

What bugles me is BOSS was the pioneer, the Super Octave OC3 was the first polyphonic octave generator in the market released in 2004. it only made sense that Japanese giant Roland would design this technology since they had been at the cutting edge of digital modelling for the past 20 years. However, it took Electro Harmonix a year of (presumably reverse engineering) to jump into that area with the POG in 2005. They shrunk it down in 2007 with the MicroPOG. 2009 saw the release of the POG2; the HOG came out in 2011 and the unreal HOG2 in 2013. Their latest achievement is the competitively priced Pitch fork. Meanwhile, BOSS clutched to their venerable OC3. EHX became torchbearers and rightfully so, they pushed the concept to the limits and reaped big rewards, they sized up the octave pedal market with a vast variety of pedals catering to all budgets.

BOSS' latest top of the line units are the GT100 and GT001. As it turns out, their pitch shifting capabilities are proper (equal to the PS6 harmonist), but their polyphonic performance sucks big time. it's just terrible. Even it's octave shifter is a let down compared to the OC3 released 10 years prior. the GT100 exhibits all the documented issues of pitch shifters: aliasing, warbling, tone stepping, and latency (which is most apparent when a Bass guitar is used). Though it's an outstanding multi-FX, it's not just a bad octave pedal, it simply isn't polyphonic. Considering their track history, its a mayor disappointment. Digitech's RP360? same issue: new DSP engine, same old crap pitchshifting, in spite of their embrace of polyphony in 2014 when the Whammy V/DT/Drop were released.

Some people might argue EHX is a "true" analog pedal maker, while BOSS is all about digital modelling, and they would be wrong. What isn't well known is every single polyphonic octave pedal EHX has made since their 2005 debut runs on a DSP chip, the POG and MicroPOG where running on Freescale DSP56364 (or similar). DSP means Digital Signal Processor, which is exactly what BOSS' COSM, KORG's REMS or Digitech's DNA/2 are. EHX simply didn't christened it nor they go around telling and 'boasting' about it, so they retain an 'analog stompbox' vibe while the others do not.

So why doesn't BOSS, ZOOM, KORG, Digitech, IK or Line6 include true polyphonic effects in their DSP-based multi-effects? did EHX patent the algorithms? is there really a stranglehold on the poly-octave market or is it simply that the numbers aren't there, and the market is so niche, big corps see no incentive to jump in?

The line pod hD series could. It's just not super obvious. I had one briefly and you could do all sorts of stuff. For example I made one patch that had the bass Octaver (which supposedly simulates an ebs octave and parallel to that had the pitch glide set one octave up which simulates a whammy. That was one advantage of the pod hD over the m series. Being able to run effects parallel or in series with each other.

As for others I just don't see having an octave up and octave down at the same time as super desirable tone. One or the other definetly but both at the same time? A lot of people have pedals that do it but they never use that ability. It's normally one or the other.

 

[JimmyM]

Up and down at the same time is good for Hollywood endings...that's about it for me.