Power Amplifier that fits with FRFR or Barefaced Cabs

[agedhorse]

So you want to bypass the preamp but also, you'd like to have a preamp to adjust eq?

Which is in part why there such a disconnect in the discussion.

 

[bherman]

AgedHorse - I’ve been reading / learning from your post for years. So no disrespect.
I admitted , I typed incorrectly when I said 1000 watts.
Another thing apparently that is getting missed in this context- is that I already am going into the fx return on my Darkglass head , but I’ve noticed when I do that , I also don’t get the EQ. I never hardly touch EQ anyway , but I do like being able to pull down the ultra low 50 hz area depending on the stage I’m on. Some stages are just boomy , but I don’t wish to make EQ decisions for FOH , so having that low cut option on my rig amp ( like the way a Crown XLS lets you) is a nice option.
I think my first paragraph was described poorly. Apologies.…..but I did go back and see that this is what I said I was buying :
“So I have decided to go with a Barefaced Big Baby 3 for my cab. “

Just to be clear, if you go with a Crown or other power amp, you won't have any eq controls. If you want eq while by passing the amp's preamp, then you need to add an eq unit to your pedalboard. Candidly, you would be much better off (at least from a simplicity standpoint) to just run the Noble into the amp's input, with eq controls set flat. I am not familiar with the DG amps - perhaps they provide too much color from the preamp even when flat, but there are plenty of amps that can run flat. That would give you the benefit of having eq controls when/if needed. If you go for an amp with a built in high pass filter (such as a Mesa Subway D800+) you'd have full eq as well as hpf and bright/deep switches. Just my 2 1/2 cents.

 

[lpbfender]

FWIW.. I sometimes run a Barefaced Big Twin 2 (4 ohms) and a Big Baby 3 (8 ohms) powered by an Aguilar AG700 at 2.67 ohms. Use outdoors and in some theaters. More than enough power and coverage and power fairly evenly distributed.

 

[lpbfender]

Secondly, I'd accept any "free" advice from Aged Horse and other interested parties here on TB. I have and benefited immensely and I have been playing bass since I was a child (1971)

 

[CarloVato]

This is the specs for a popular Crown XLS Power Amp , and this is one I have access to.
( wouldn’t have to buy)
I did read all comments above. Per side , at 8ohm it’s only 300 watts , but bridged at 8ohms it seems to be more than enough.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but just because it can do 1000 watts bridged at 8ohms , doesn’t mean I have to use it at 100%.

 

[CarloVato]

No N4860 , I’d like to bypass the pre , but be able to have low cut options, like the way some Crown or other Power Amps offer.

 

[agedhorse]

This is the specs for a popular Crown XLS Power Amp , and this is one I have access to.
( wouldn’t have to buy)
I did read all comments above. Per side , at 8ohm it’s only 300 watts , but bridged at 8ohms it seems to be more than enough.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but just because it can do 1000 watts bridged at 8ohms , doesn’t mean I have to use it at 100%.

View attachment 5226326

That’s fine IF you don’t have accidents or momentary lapses in good judgement.

You also need to understand how bridge mode works on the amp and the speaker cable wiring required. It’s different at the amp end than a standard cable.

 

[Gizmot]

There are a huge number of units that will likely work, from older, heavier class AB/G/H units that can be had to lighter newer class D amps. Crown, Crest, Yamaha, QSC and many other known and reputable brands are out there. Depending on budget and other specs that interest you check classifieds or the stores and see what you can afford and carry and see that it has the sensitivity so that you gear can drive it to full power. 1kW bridged is really common, heck even 2ch at 1kW/4R/ch is common and fairly inexpensive.

Pro power amps have no 'tone' so if they have the power you need, any of them will sound the same.

I've been using full range cabs with pro amps for many years and only gone to my HB 800B recently as it's small, light and inexpensive (and it has an IcePower power module).

You’re right - genuine professional power amps are supposed to have linear response and be as accurate as possible. However to say or infer that they all sound the same is simply not true. Because of circuit topology and the huge differences in power supply design amps (even ones with identical or nearly the same specs) will sound different

 

[BassyBill]

GR Bass Pure Amp 800 would be ideal to partner with a Big Twin 3 (4 ohm) cab.
PureAmp – GRBass

 

[agedhorse]

You’re right - genuine professional power amps are supposed to have linear response and be as accurate as possible. However to say or infer that they all sound the same is simply not true. Because of circuit topology and the huge differences in power supply design amps (even ones with identical or nearly the same specs) will sound different

Yet in double-blind testing (and not driven into clipping) it’s very difficult to impossible to reliably identify any differences. There are a couple of exceptions, but they were intentionally different.

 

[Gizmot]

Yet in double-blind testing (and not driven into clipping) it’s very difficult to impossible to reliably identify any differences. There are a couple of exceptions, but they were intentionally different.

If amps are played into wide range, highly resolute speakers and pushed a little (nowhere close to clipping or activating built in limiters, etc), there are audible differences. These differences might not be night-and-day, but are noticeable. To some people these differences are important - to others, as long as they have signal flow, they’re happy

 

[Snert]

However to say or infer that they all sound the same is simply not true. Because of circuit topology and the huge differences in power supply design amps (even ones with identical or nearly the same specs) will sound different

I would put a very considerable amount of money on the fact that you could not reliably pick ANY two pro, PA style amps, blind, level matched, in a reference quality studio/hi-fi system. Let alone a bass rig that is considerably lower resolution. This is based on designing a lot of amplifiers, working on more and having done DBTs and read about a lot of them.

As AH said, an amplifier designed to have some baked in tonal characteristic may be detectable, but that does not fit most engineer's definition of a pro amp, certainly not mine.

 

[Snert]

Since we were posting concurrently...

If amps are played into wide range, highly resolute speakers and pushed a little (nowhere close to clipping or activating built in limiters, etc), there are audible differences. These differences might not be night-and-day, but are noticeable. To some people these differences are important - to others, as long as they have signal flow, they’re happy

... the testing doesn't actually back that up.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

I never hardly touch EQ anyway , but I do like being able to pull down the ultra low 50 hz area depending on the stage I’m on. Some stages are just boomy , but I don’t wish to make EQ decisions for FOH ,

At the DI there is a Pre or Post button.
Pre will not send any adjustments to the FOH, Post will. Set it to Pre.

Some of their models have a Cab Select button for DI, it gives the DI a cab simulation or just an unaffected DI signal.
Set it to the unaffected DI.

Do this and you do not need to buy anything and the Darkglass will be smaller and lighter than the PA amps you are currently talking about.

 

[Boneless]

One word of caution. Power compression (the fact that speakers can't really translate power into SPL as expected) is a bitch. Also, the relation between volume and power is not linear, but logarithmic. Having lots of power will not help you sound particularly louder, but might (might!) be cleaner. Why might? Because with bass (a simple signal) you can clip on transients and basically not hear it. A compressor (and speakers already "compress" a bit) will help you sound louder more than more power.

 

[Heisenbass]

This is not based on specs but on common sense: if a car is „rated“, i.e. its maximum speed is stated at 240 km/h (I live in Europe), it is not a good idea to permanently run it at this speed, as you would most probably significantly shorten its life expectancy (and yours also, but that‘s a different story). IMO, same applies to amps and cabs.

That being said, I own a Quilter BB802 (a fairly flat amp BTW) and a Barefaced BB2. The Quilter is rated at 450W @ 8 Ohms, and the BB2 is rated at 700W @ 8 Ohms. And if you dime the master, it gets insanely loud. And it doesn‘t sound, like the cab is within its comfort zone, although, theoretically, there still should be some headroom available. I mean, Barefaced makes great cabs, but there’s a limit to a 1x12. IMO, if you really want to get that loud, you should use the FOH.

 

[RevOgre]

Just to be clear, if you go with a Crown or other power amp, you won't have any eq controls. If you want eq while by passing the amp's preamp, then you need to add an eq unit to your pedalboard. Candidly, you would be much better off (at least from a simplicity standpoint) to just run the Noble into the amp's input, with eq controls set flat. I am not familiar with the DG amps - perhaps they provide too much color from the preamp even when flat, but there are plenty of amps that can run flat. That would give you the benefit of having eq controls when/if needed. If you go for an amp with a built in high pass filter (such as a Mesa Subway D800+) you'd have full eq as well as hpf and bright/deep switches. Just my 2 1/2 cents.

Yeah even Jack from Noble recommend this when I asked. He said he'd just run it into the input with the amp set flat.

 

[pfschim]

Yeah even Jack from Noble recommend this when I asked. He said he'd just run it into the input with the amp set flat.

FWIW, I definitely run my Noble into my amps (Mesa Walkabout and WD800) regular input and try to set the EQ as flat as possible. OTOH, that can be a real trick is because it's not always super clear what "flat" is on all preamps and most/many preamps do have a baked in sound even when set as flat as possible.

I tried my Noble into the FX loop on several amps; Ampeg SVT6pro, Mesa Walkabout, Mesa WD800, Ampeg Portaflex 500 before I decided that it was better (IMO) to use the regular amp input. The only amp that I liked the sound of using the Noble into the FX loop was the Walkabout which has a tube driver stage before the mosfets, which I think really influenced what I heard. Again, in the end, I just run the Noble into the front input of the amps I use regularly and I have been very happy with the results for the past 4 years.

 

[Guitalia]

If amps are played into wide range, highly resolute speakers and pushed a little (nowhere close to clipping or activating built in limiters, etc), there are audible differences. These differences might not be night-and-day, but are noticeable. To some people these differences are important - to others, as long as they have signal flow, they’re happy

If I remember correctly, Agedhorse once told the story of how he, just before leaving an early job in the audiophile world, performed a comparison of three power amplifiers that retailed at different levels for a roomful of hi-fi magazine writers. I forget the details, but suffice it to say that the supposed experts were very unhappy with what the results (dis)proved about their powers of evaluation.

If I'm remembering any of this wrong, perhaps Agedhorse will weigh in.

 

[agedhorse]

If I remember correctly, Agedhorse once told the story of how he, just before leaving an early job in the audiophile world, performed a comparison of three power amplifiers that retailed at different levels for a roomful of hi-fi magazine writers. I forget the details, but suffice it to say that the supposed experts were very unhappy with what the results (dis)proved about their powers of evaluation.

If I'm remembering any of this wrong, perhaps Agedhorse will weigh in.

It was a marketing schmooze-fest for potential high rollers and some press. Lots of wine and champagne were involved, and I was directed to be sure to “influence the results” in the company’s favor.

This was the last straw for me, so I influenced the results alright but in a way that showed how absurd all the cork sniffing was. I used the same amp (our product) and two amps that were not connected to the switcher.

For the first test, all 3 amps were fed identically from the switcher.

Then we added 3 identical cork sniffer power cords to the test setup and we switched between the “3 amps” the ONLY difference was that there was a 1/2 dB pad on one feed and a 1dB pad on the other feed. The voting came in and guess what?

In the first round of testing, the results were about 1/3-1/3-1/3 as would be expected by random choice.

In the second round, the choice that was just barely the loudest (by only 1dB) was the clear winner.

The golden ear audiophiles were creative with their descriptions, more creative as the alcohol flowed freely and the shrimp platters consumed. Notes of chocolate, warmth of satin Burgundy, the texture of Jade overlayed with a quartz hue, and many more ridiculous prose, each golden ear trying to outfit each other.

Then the curtains were opened and they discovered that they had been listening to a single amp in every test! Yes, I influenced the testing but not quite in the way the company expected.

I had already left my resignation letter on the owner’s desk so I quietly slipped out the back door as the poopie began to hit the fan… and again the alcohol probably inflamed the behavior as much at the testing.

That folks, is how I resigned from my first and only job in audiophile (audiophool) audio! This was over 40 years ago.