Sell nothing...buy nothing. Check your local network; I'm sure you can find someone with a modicum of PA / FOH experience willing to offer some hands-on direction.
Riis
Riis
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Powered Mixer not powerful enough... what's my next move?
- Thread starter officialjlox
- Start date
You need more power 250 watts is not enough. Best practice is an amp rated 2x the speaker "continuous" watt rating... Get a bigger power amp, and a feedback eliminator like a EQ with a feedback ferret, (behringer) then hire a sound man to come out and set it up and run 1 show. then label everything and look at the settings and write them down. have him give you a lesson or two. best bet for your money. If you don't know how to use your gear your not ever going to get a good sound.. Read Read Read, there is a wealth of info on the net.
good point with the sound guy- and yeah i'm trying to do my research and get a fix on this stuff, hecne this post as a starting point
Good point. Could be useful in the future since he did say they were stuck with what they have!
May sound like a no brainer, but you did have the speaker for the vocals well in front of the microphone? You didn't put the PA speaker back by the guitar cabs did you?
If so, theres your feedback problem.
Sounds like you could have turned up the volume more, if not for feedback? so its not a power issue. (might be a cab quality issue, though.. crummy cabs feedback more, or so I've heard) Or, perhapse the reflections in the space were just that bad that mains in front of the stage were reflecting sound offa the back wall into the mic for feedback.
If so, theres your feedback problem.
Sounds like you could have turned up the volume more, if not for feedback? so its not a power issue. (might be a cab quality issue, though.. crummy cabs feedback more, or so I've heard) Or, perhapse the reflections in the space were just that bad that mains in front of the stage were reflecting sound offa the back wall into the mic for feedback.
So is the problem that the system isn't loud enough or is the problem feedback?
Those are two different things. Sometimes related, but still two different things.
I'd get a 1/3rd octave EQ to solve the feedback problem and see how loud the system is then. You will want one anyway when you upgrade.
Then I would sell all that crap and start over.
STOP. STOP. STOP.
The signs of a system unable to handle the volume is DISTORTION, NOT FEEDBACK. A 300W vocal system should be MORE than enough to handle a small gig. Feedback either means that your PA is placed wrongly (they should be in front of your singer), or that your singer is not singing loud enough.
READ: Buying more power at this stage would simply cause more feedback.
You can help this by:
1. PA placement. PA should be in front and to the side of the singer. She should not be relying on them to hear herself, that is recipe for feedback.
2. Small powered vocal monitor. Properly placed (in front of her, angled up and facing back), this will allow the singer to hear herself and not have to rely on the PA - which is probably what is causing the feedback anyway. Pay attention to the pickup patterns of the mike to place it in the dead zone so feedback is minimised. Cardioid mics like the SM58 would reject most of the sound coming from the direction of the cable connector. Super- and Hyper- Cardioid mics would benefit from a speaker slightly off center, but still in front and facing back.
3. EQ. You can squeeze a lot of power out of a vocal-only system by highpassing. I usually increase the knee frequency until i hear a change in the tone of the singer, then back it off slightly. For female singers this can be as high as 200 Hz.
The signs of a system unable to handle the volume is DISTORTION, NOT FEEDBACK. A 300W vocal system should be MORE than enough to handle a small gig. Feedback either means that your PA is placed wrongly (they should be in front of your singer), or that your singer is not singing loud enough.
READ: Buying more power at this stage would simply cause more feedback.
You can help this by:
1. PA placement. PA should be in front and to the side of the singer. She should not be relying on them to hear herself, that is recipe for feedback.
2. Small powered vocal monitor. Properly placed (in front of her, angled up and facing back), this will allow the singer to hear herself and not have to rely on the PA - which is probably what is causing the feedback anyway. Pay attention to the pickup patterns of the mike to place it in the dead zone so feedback is minimised. Cardioid mics like the SM58 would reject most of the sound coming from the direction of the cable connector. Super- and Hyper- Cardioid mics would benefit from a speaker slightly off center, but still in front and facing back.
3. EQ. You can squeeze a lot of power out of a vocal-only system by highpassing. I usually increase the knee frequency until i hear a change in the tone of the singer, then back it off slightly. For female singers this can be as high as 200 Hz.
From what i have read from your responses, the Mic may be a problem, i am hoping it's not a $10 plastic karaoki one. You should not be getting feedback still while the rest of the band has turned down to almost non-existance.
Make sure the singer has a good brand of mic, a Shure SM58 is an industry standard, you system will only be as good as the worst bit of gear in the chain.
And as mentioned above, look at the speaker placement, they must be forwards of the mics, and if needed get a powered monitor speaker for the vocalist.
You system should be sufficient for small gigs, heck 22 years ago i startet off with a 150 watt vocal system and that worked for a lot of medium room and hall parties.
Another peev i have is singers who keep "Fiddling" with the desk all the time.
Make sure the singer has a good brand of mic, a Shure SM58 is an industry standard, you system will only be as good as the worst bit of gear in the chain.
And as mentioned above, look at the speaker placement, they must be forwards of the mics, and if needed get a powered monitor speaker for the vocalist.
You system should be sufficient for small gigs, heck 22 years ago i startet off with a 150 watt vocal system and that worked for a lot of medium room and hall parties.
Another peev i have is singers who keep "Fiddling" with the desk all the time.
I've done a few hundred gigs with my little 300w powered mixer & 2-150w boxes and they've always done the job. Sounds to me like the singer has a problem with the band moreso than the PA. If you can't hear the vocals you're playing too loud.
OK - so thinking about this for a bit... Placement of the mains was probably an issue. the mic needs to be behind the mains, which means you need a monitor or two. That way you guys and she will be able to hear and you won't have feedback from the mains.
The system as it is will still be sub-optimal but... if you're sutck with it for a while, might as well put it to the best use possible. I would troll CL for a couple of good used monitors.
You'll probably need additional cable as well as you'll be running one side main off the other. Happily that will get you to 4 ohms so max power out of that power amp.
It's a shame that board doesn't have well thought out I/O...
In opverall terms of learning how to setup and run the PA - take your iPod, connect it up, set the EQ on the iPod to flat. Now learn what it takes to make some relatively neutral program music sound good. Then have your singer, kareoke with it... Do it in a large space and you should have a good place to start in a little while.
The system as it is will still be sub-optimal but... if you're sutck with it for a while, might as well put it to the best use possible. I would troll CL for a couple of good used monitors.
You'll probably need additional cable as well as you'll be running one side main off the other. Happily that will get you to 4 ohms so max power out of that power amp.
It's a shame that board doesn't have well thought out I/O...
In opverall terms of learning how to setup and run the PA - take your iPod, connect it up, set the EQ on the iPod to flat. Now learn what it takes to make some relatively neutral program music sound good. Then have your singer, kareoke with it... Do it in a large space and you should have a good place to start in a little while.
It's too bad your singer didn't take into account the need for monitors. While that system provides outputs for monitors, there are other all in one mixer/amps that have outputs and switchable main/monitor setups without the need for another power amp. I suggest y'all get some powered monitors pronto. I would have gotten something with more power as well. I believe Mackie has a nice unit with dual 800w amps. Peavey and Yamaha have units with dual 600w amps IIRC.
This has been said before but;
Placement - your PA speaks need to be in front of your singer. Simple right? But with the speaks out there, she's not going to be able to hear herself. Which brings us to;
Monitors - she needs to have one. I built a Bill Fitzmaurice wedgehorn 8 and it works great and didn't cost too much to build.
Microphone - If you don't know what it is it's prob not a good one. The tried and true is a SM58. $100 bucks, if you don't have that, try these - http://www.speakerrepair.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=microphones&cables they're a SM58 clone and honestly I can't tell the difference - maybe a slight tonal variation compared side by side.
And since we're talking about microphones, does she know proper mic technique? how to hold it, where to stand, where not to point it?
Before going and chucking the PA out the window, you should set it up somewhere and play with everything, placement, settings etc. That would help a ton.
Then if you want to upgrade check out the Fitzmaurice cabs. I built 2 DR250's and I am running those and the monitors off of a Yamaha emx68 and it works fantastic.
Placement - your PA speaks need to be in front of your singer. Simple right? But with the speaks out there, she's not going to be able to hear herself. Which brings us to;
Monitors - she needs to have one. I built a Bill Fitzmaurice wedgehorn 8 and it works great and didn't cost too much to build.
Microphone - If you don't know what it is it's prob not a good one. The tried and true is a SM58. $100 bucks, if you don't have that, try these - http://www.speakerrepair.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=microphones&cables they're a SM58 clone and honestly I can't tell the difference - maybe a slight tonal variation compared side by side.
And since we're talking about microphones, does she know proper mic technique? how to hold it, where to stand, where not to point it?
Before going and chucking the PA out the window, you should set it up somewhere and play with everything, placement, settings etc. That would help a ton.
Then if you want to upgrade check out the Fitzmaurice cabs. I built 2 DR250's and I am running those and the monitors off of a Yamaha emx68 and it works fantastic.
There is a lot of conflicting advice here - some coming from people who do not run sound. I run a slightly larger, unpowered version of that board with one band I play in and it works fine and has enough I/O for our needs which are more complicated than yours.
It looks like the only thing you really need is a monitor for the singer and some basic hands-on setup instruction from someone that knows what they are doing.
Just for grins you could set up at a rehearsal with one of your speakers on the floor in wedge position aimed back at the singer and one up on its stand, well in front of the mic facing away. You will find that one set of EQ sliders and one output fader will affect your "monitor" and the other set will affect your "main" speaker. You should be able to turn both up pretty loud. Roll off the low frequencies below 100 hz. If it feeds back, adjust first the monitor EQ (one slider at a time). If this works OK. You could look at just replacing the "monitor" with a wedge type speaker(or even two), running a speaker line from one main to the other (daisy chain) and putting both of your original speakers up front. For small rooms, this should work great.
Alternately, you could attach a powered monitor to Aux send 1 and control its volume with the Aux knob and the Aux 1 knobs on each channel. The original speakers could be set up like you did. Just make sure they are set up at least a foot or two in front of the mic and facing away. The down side of this is that (unless the monitor has EQ) you lose the EQ for the monitor.
It looks like the only thing you really need is a monitor for the singer and some basic hands-on setup instruction from someone that knows what they are doing.
Just for grins you could set up at a rehearsal with one of your speakers on the floor in wedge position aimed back at the singer and one up on its stand, well in front of the mic facing away. You will find that one set of EQ sliders and one output fader will affect your "monitor" and the other set will affect your "main" speaker. You should be able to turn both up pretty loud. Roll off the low frequencies below 100 hz. If it feeds back, adjust first the monitor EQ (one slider at a time). If this works OK. You could look at just replacing the "monitor" with a wedge type speaker(or even two), running a speaker line from one main to the other (daisy chain) and putting both of your original speakers up front. For small rooms, this should work great.
Alternately, you could attach a powered monitor to Aux send 1 and control its volume with the Aux knob and the Aux 1 knobs on each channel. The original speakers could be set up like you did. Just make sure they are set up at least a foot or two in front of the mic and facing away. The down side of this is that (unless the monitor has EQ) you lose the EQ for the monitor.
And how much power are you running with your system?
What speakers are you using?
The OP still has not addresed what type of music they are playing, that will shed the most light of if the system the OP has is even useful for what they are trying to do.
Hey gang
As an FYI I went online and looked at the pdf manual...
Flexible switching allows the TM500 to be used either in standard stereo
configuration or in a unique split mono mode, where it can drive both main PA
speakers and onstage monitors simultaneously.
It has 2 7 band graphics that can be run stereo or FOH and monitor. Bingo all they need now a 2 more monitors and they are good to go for now
Read
As an FYI I went online and looked at the pdf manual...
Flexible switching allows the TM500 to be used either in standard stereo
configuration or in a unique split mono mode, where it can drive both main PA
speakers and onstage monitors simultaneously.
It has 2 7 band graphics that can be run stereo or FOH and monitor. Bingo all they need now a 2 more monitors and they are good to go for now
Read
Vinny, the OP stated in his first post that they are a heavy alt rock band. I Can't find any specs on the OPs speakers either. They may be real inefficient which could be the main reason they are not loud enough.
