Powered Monitor Help!

[philter25]

Hey guys,

Im in a cover band and I play bass and I need a monitor to hear vocals and guitar. We currently have K12s as mains and a Mackie 1604VLZ3 16-Channel Mixer. We have 4 vocal mics, keyboard, guitar, and bass running into the mixer along with 4 drum mics. I have a 220 watt ampeg 115hp combo that sits right behind me, so I dont have a problem hearing bass at all.

I currently have a JBL Eon G2 10 which I hoped to use as my monitor that I had from a previous band doing acoustic gigs. The G2 10 was perfect for acoustic gigs and was just the right volume level. It biamped, with 125 going to the 10" for lows and 50 watts going to the high.

We tried it the other night at our first gig and it wasnt enough volume for me to hear over the drums which are set up right next to me. I could barely hear guitar and vocals so I figured I'd either need to increase the gain coming to my speaker through the mixer or get a more powerful speaker.

What do you guys think? Can an Eon G2 10 be powerful enough for me to hear vocals and guitars over drums and my bass amp? Or do I need something more powerful, and if so, could anyone provide a recommendation for a SMALL powered monitor. Small is the key because at the places we play, we usually dont have much stage room at all. And since my ampeg bass amp is always right behind me, I dont need to hear bass through the monitor, only guitars, keys, and vocals, so I think a 10 inch should be fine.

I went to my local GC the other day and played through the new Eon 510. I wanted to love it, because it has 100 more watts than my Eon G2 10 and only weighs 17 lbs, but it actually felt quieter than my G2 10, so I was rather disappointed.

 

[JackANSI]

I'd start by moving away from a 10" speaker and trying a 12"..

 

[topper]

I know Behringer has a bad rep around here, but I've had good luck with a B212a. They don't make it anymore, but I think they have a similar replacement.

 

[modulusman]

If it was me I would get another K12. In the event that one of the mains quit working you could use it for a main.

 

[gmarcus]

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Electro-Voice-ZXA190-Powered-PA-Speaker?sku=423344

This monitor is really loud, small and light. I play bass and trumpet through it. You can engage a low cut at 100Hz which cleans it up and really lets you turn it up. It might be the ticket for your guitar/vocal monitoring. Its small enough to mount up near ear level too.

 

[philter25]

I'd start by moving away from a 10" speaker and trying a 12"..

I wouldnt necessarily say thats the case. The JBL G2 10 has better bass and depth than some of the cheaper 12" monitors I have tried out.

So I dont think its as simple as trying a bigger speaker.... plus, compactness is rather important.

I know Behringer has a bad rep around here, but I've had good luck with a B212a. They don't make it anymore, but I think they have a similar replacement.

Ive checked out the Behringer stuff. The B212a is a little too big, and I think the sound quality wasnt as good as the JBL Eon I have. Decent pricepoint, and as a monitor, you definately could use something not as clean as the K12 or JBL Eons, but the size was a problem.

If it was me I would get another K12. In the event that one of the mains quit working you could use it for a main.

Ha! I was thinking about getting a K10. A little smaller than the K12, a little more dispersion range than the K12, plus I couldnt tell a difference listening to the 12 vs the 10. The 10 sounded just like the 12. The K10 also has an angled side so it can be a monitor.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Electro-Voice-ZXA190-Powered-PA-Speaker?sku=423344

This monitor is really loud, small and light. I play bass and trumpet through it. You can engage a low cut at 100Hz which cleans it up and really lets you turn it up. It might be the ticket for your guitar/vocal monitoring. Its small enough to mount up near ear level too.

Looks good. I think it meets all my criteria and thats a pretty good price point. I'll have to check it out at the local GC this weekend.

It doesnt have a problem playing bass through it? I would also love something that could double as a practice amp as I dont like lugging the ampeg combo back and forth to practice. Have you plugged your bass guitar directly into it? A lot of songs we played drop a half step or a step down, does the speaker sound fine playing the Low E string (which would be a D in my tuning)?

That would be a HUGE added bonus if I could use the EV as a small practice amp and plug my bass directly into it!

 

[JackANSI]

I wouldnt necessarily say thats the case. The JBL G2 10 has better bass and depth than some of the cheaper 12" monitors I have tried out.

So I dont think its as simple as trying a bigger speaker.... plus, compactness is rather important.


Ha! I was thinking about getting a K10. A little smaller than the K12, a little more dispersion range than the K12, plus I couldnt tell a difference listening to the 12 vs the 10. The 10 sounded just like the 12. The K10 also has an angled side so it can be a monitor.

You asked, then proceed to just go with what you want anyway... So why waste people's time? (and it is as simple as a bigger speaker)

You can rev the nuts off a 4 cyl, or just go get the hemi v8 and be happy.

 

[philter25]

You asked, then proceed to just go with what you want anyway... So why waste people's time? (and it is as simple as a bigger speaker)

You can rev the nuts off a 4 cyl, or just go get the hemi v8 and be happy.

Woah there!

So I should just go get a bigger speaker. Wattage, clarity, etc has nothing to do with it. You didnt even suggest a speaker, just get a bigger one.

I should just go around the block and buy anything with a bigger speaker, and no matter what the speaker, its going to be able to be heard better than what I currently have?

And ive tried bigger speakers. I listened to the powered behringer, which the other poster suggested, and I played through the mackie 350 and 450. But my problem is also portability and compactness and I need something small and light.

Put the 10" (which according to you wont work) K10 up against the Behringer B212a, which is a 12" speaker. The K10 blows it away in every category, and its smaller.

Hence why I POLITELY said I dont think its as simple as just getting a bigger speaker. Heck, Im sure I could even find a SMALLER speaker which would do the trick. A K8 on a stand could potentially work better than a cheap 12" speaker, but I dont think the K8's have the ability to go on their side as a monitor.

The last 2 suggestions were very helpful, and the last one was even more helpful because I didnt even know EV made a powered speaker.

So I wasnt asking for advice and then doing what I wanted, because currently there isnt a single speaker that I want. I thought about a K10, but I havent decided on that.... I think its a little overkill for a monitor, but it does meet all my criteria. And Im glad I posted because I wouldnt have known about the EV powered speaker and I look forward to trying that out over the weekend.

My only requirements are compactness and loud enough to let me hear vocals and guitars over drums and my bass amp. So if its a 12" speaker, thats perfect, if its a 10" that works also, then great, heck it can even be an 8 inch if it meets my criteria and would work. Im not ruling out 12" for no reason.

If you know a 12" powered monitor that would serve the purpose that I am looking for, I hope you would suggest it but by telling me to just go out and get a 12 inch speaker without suggesting anything specific doesnt help me at all.

 

[JackANSI]

Everyone has 'their brand' when it comes to beer, smokes, and a PA. Why even go there?

A wider dispersion angle isn't necessarily going to be the solution, nor will more wattage or even a larger speaker. But, the larger speaker does have more ability to 'get the sound out' the louder you push it.

Comparing a QSC K10 to a Behr B212(A or D) is like comparing an RCF ART 722A to any of the K series... So of course you were disappointed.

The best advice given was the K12, which you can tilt back just like the K10 (the K8 is the one that doesn't have the 'monitor' stance if I'm not mistaken), and it can double as a backup in a pinch. Its not THAT much bigger either.

The ZXA1 would be a close second, but only because its 'unproven' being so new compared to the K series (I think the ZXA was the one at this past NAMM).

If you're hell bent on the perfect clarity and never want to have an issue with being able to hear the mix, IEM. I think you'll love the Westone UM1's if you like the K10. (Edit: I suggest the IEMs as the ultimate in compactness and portability, not to be a smart***)

 

[philter25]

You are all over the place my man.

I'd start by moving away from a 10" speaker and trying a 12"..
..................You asked, then proceed to just go with what you want anyway... So why waste people's time? (and it is as simple as a bigger speaker)

So I should just get a larger speaker, then IM wasting peoples time for not originally agreeing with you, then it IS as simple as a bigger speaker, now its:

Everyone has 'their brand' when it comes to beer, smokes, and a PA. Why even go there?

A wider dispersion angle isn't necessarily going to be the solution, nor will more wattage or even a larger speaker. But, the larger speaker does have more ability to 'get the sound out' the louder you push it.

So there is more to it than just speaker size? Isnt that what I originally politely responded to your first post which you decided to snap back at me?

Comparing a QSC K10 to a Behr B212(A or D) is like comparing an RCF ART 722A to any of the K series... So of course you were disappointed.

The best advice given was the K12, which you can tilt back just like the K10 (the K8 is the one that doesn't have the 'monitor' stance if I'm not mistaken), and it can double as a backup in a pinch. Its not THAT much bigger either.

The ZXA1 would be a close second, but only because its 'unproven' being so new compared to the K series (I think the ZXA was the one at this past NAMM).

If you're hell bent on the perfect clarity and never want to have an issue with being able to hear the mix, IEM. I think you'll love the Westone UM1's if you like the K10. (Edit: I suggest the IEMs as the ultimate in compactness and portability, not to be a smart***)

Now that wasnt so hard was it. As a monitor, Im willing to sacrifice perfect clarity. The main concern is being able to hear guitar and vocals over my bass amp playing at stage volume and drums. We have a keyboardist who also sings, a lead singer, and a guitarist who also sings. I live and gig outside of Washington DC. Almost every single place we play at is very small so we can only have 2 monitors up front split between the keys/vocals/and guitar, and Im set up in the back with the drums. Where I usually am on stage is behind the guitar amp so I hear no stage volume from guitar and barely anything from vocals, so I just need something simple and compact with adequate volume to feed me guitar and vocals.

The K10/K12 and the EV were good suggestions, especially the EV because I was unaware that they made powered speakers and their quality is usually pretty good. The behringer and the 2 mackie's didnt sound as good as I would like and the new JBL Eon (the 510, 315, and 515) all were quieter than my G2. I read thats due to JBL completely redesigning the speaker's input sensitivity to be more compatible with mixing boards which put out a higher db, so even on full volume the new JBLs dont put out enough sound with our mixer.

Anyone know anything else thats a good powered portable monitor?

I'll do a side by side with the EV and K10/12 this weekend at GC.

 

[phsycobass]

I don't know what your price range is, but check out the yorkville nx25p (or nx55p). There is a reason that the most common speaker size for monitors is 12 inches. Its not because 12 inches are automaticly better/louder (they're not!). It's because there are very few 10 inch speakers that can keep up on a loud rock stage and 15 inch is overkill for alot of regular bands. However if you can test a k10 in your band situation and you like it, this might be your best bet (or just get another k12).

 

[modulusman]

I have JBL PRX512ms they sound better to me than the K12 or Mackie 450s.

 

[Bofee]

Just for a different take, I use one of these about waist high, pointed right at my head when I'm on the mike with just my vocal and the rhythm guitar in it. It works great. (For me)
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VSM300XT/

 

[konodl18]

We tried it the other night at our first gig and it wasnt enough volume for me to hear over the drums which are set up right next to me. I could barely hear guitar and vocals so I figured I'd either need to increase the gain coming to my speaker through the mixer or get a more powerful speaker.

So with the Eon wide open, you weren't able to hear the guitars and vocals through them? Was the speaker clipping when you ran out of volume?

If you ran out of volume and the speaker was not clipping at all yet, you don't have a stong enough signal going into the Eon.

If you were clipping, then you are correct in assuming that you need more power or a bigger speaker, or both.

Derek

 

[JackANSI]

I wasn't all over the place, a bigger speaker won't help if their are things going wrong before the speaker. But a bigger speaker, all other things equal, will help in your situation. Period.

Take it or leave it

 

[philter25]

I appreciate the responses. Between this board and the post I made at Harmony central, I have almost a dozen options to check into and I was only aware of 3-4 to start with.

I appreciate it.

So with the Eon wide open, you weren't able to hear the guitars and vocals through them? Was the speaker clipping when you ran out of volume?

If you ran out of volume and the speaker was not clipping at all yet, you don't have a stong enough signal going into the Eon.

If you were clipping, then you are correct in assuming that you need more power or a bigger speaker, or both.

Derek

Hey Derek,

The Eon was on full volume, but it wasnt clipping. The way we run the board is we have our monitors as a sub-outputs. So we set up each channel, get it to clip at stage volume level, and then we turn it down a few DBs. We then set all the volumes with the faders to give our mix. Everything, keys, vocals, guitars, and bass goes to the main outs which are the K12s.

Then we assign everything to sub output 1, which is the main 2 monitors up front.

Then we assign everything except bass to sub output 3, which is my monitor. I dont need bass in my monitor because Im standing in front of my amp.

I think I am going to try setting up my monitor through the aux output instead of the sub output. When you set it up through the suboutput, you cant control the individual gains of each channel. Whatever you set up each channel for is the EQ and gain you get with your monitor. You can only control the master fade because of you give more gain on each channel, it gives more gain to the mains.

If I run through the aux output, each channel has an individual aux gain control, and then there is the master aux out gain. Therefore, I can give myself a little more gain in each channel and max out the master gain going to my monitor and see if that gives me a little boost.

Im 100% sure that the singer, who sets up our sound, gives a VERY conservative gain for each channel because the K12s as main speakers are loud as hell and dont need a strong signal to fill up some of the smaller places we have been playing. So in turn, his conservative gain setup for each channel probably isnt giving me enough gain for my monitor.

So you are right, the Eon wasnt clipping so even though it was on max volume, it still could be pushed a little more.

 

[modulusman]

Using the aux sends is the correct way to run monitors. Why you would use the subgroups is beyond me.

 

[stflbn]

Personally, I have a K-series P.A.

2 k10's and ksub as mains.
2 k10's as monitors.

They work fantastic. More than enough juice with their 1000w's.

I do not run bass through my monitors. Only vocals, guitar, kick, etc. Though in deep mode the k10's do a suprisingly well job. I've used a single k10 before at a practice when I didn't want to lug around my rig.


- no clue why you're using sub-mixes rather than Aux sends for monitor mixes.

- my k10 monitors are usually working harder than my mains out front.

- the ksub in combination with the k10's is fantastic.

.

.

 

[modulusman]

Hook your Eon up to your board correctly using the Aux sends. That might be your problem.

 

[philter25]

Just for clarification, when I say "subout", I mean subgroup outputs, not "sub out" as something for low frequencies only that you would connect a subwoofer to.

I just joined playing with these guys a few weeks ago.

Before I joined, whatever was the main mix was exactly the same mix they ran through the monitors. Only they wanted to be able to seperately control the volume of the monitors, so they assigned every channel to suboutput 1 so they could control the overall volume going to the monitors by the fader slider.

For smaller places, it was a similar thing with the K12s as they were kinda overkill for the venues they were playing at, so using the suboutput groups provided enough signal for the front 2 monitors to be loud enough.

I told them before the show that I was fine with the same mix they were sending to the mains with everything except bass. I didnt need bass because I was standing in front of my amp and heard myself fine so for simplicity's sake, the lead singer just pushed a button, assigned everything minus bass to the suboutput group 3, and plugged in my monitor.

I discovered this the other day when I emailed the singer to ask him how he set the mix up and I think that might be part of the problem, which is why I posted about it in my last post. I know he was doing a conservative channel setup and when you have 1000 watt mains, and then 500 watt monitors, and then my 175 watt G2 monitor, that conservative setup wasnt giving me enough signal.

Im going to run everything through the aux outputs at the next practice and see with a better signal if my G2 is powerful enough to be heard over drums and guitars.

However, based on the fact that the same exact mix that goes to the mains is what the singers and guitarist like to hear through their monitors, theres nothing really wrong with using a subgroup output to just control the master volume of their monitors. They just have no ability to turn up or turn down individuals in the monitor mix..... whereas I need the additional gain that the individual aux gains on each channel can provide.