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Practical difference between a 6 chord and a 13 chord when walking?

#21
Groove Master said:
This is WRONG. When notating extensions on a chord symbol, it implies all the extensions below by default. It is up to the musician to understand and voice properly by omitting the dissonance between the third and the eleven or the fifth and the b13 for example. BTW the major 7th IS NOT a dissonance but the minor ninth interval IS a dissonance and that IS the reason why we should avoid having a major third and an eleven within a chord.

That is why it is important to understand the theory behind chord construction and their harmonic functions. We shouldn't have to indicate a symbol like this: C13(add9, no 11) for example
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Well, well. A 13 includes b7, 9, 11, yes, but the main sound you want is the major 3rd, and the tension between b7 and 13. The 9th and 11th are usually omitted. (And on a side note: if you want the 11 in there, use 13sus to replace the 3rd). The main point of a b13-chord is the dissonance between the 5th and the b13. If you don't want the perfect 5th, write + (or #5) to indicate a raised 5th instead of using b13.
 
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#22
Fredrik E. Nilsen said:
Well, well. A 13 includes b7, 9, 11, yes.
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So that's it. Doesn't need more debate. Also check the voicing on the wikipedia page for the C13, it does contain the 9th and the 11 is omitted. Also if you want a 13 with 11 in it, the best way to indicate it is this: BbMaj7/C. The information on the link about the 13 in pop/jazz is just plain wrong. Every jazz pianist I know will voice a C13 with the 9th in it.
 
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#24
Dear @Groove Master;

I am going to respectfully disagree:

1) The quote is direct from Wiki, not me. Wiki is usually, but not always correct. I read the article and thought it was all correct.

2) The article said the interval from the b7, not the Maj7, to 13th is a disonnance. Which is correct.

3) The article said the "A thirteenth chord does not imply the quality of the ninth or eleventh scale degrees.". The sound gallery then shows altered possibilities, so I understand where the article is coming from. I would tend to agree that a simple C13 implies the the 3, 5, and b7 and everything else is up to the player to select appropriately. I have seen the C13add 9 and other similar symbology in guitar music to clarify exactly this issue.

On the last point, I will leave it up to your preference. I have seen a lot of hand to hand combat in music theory threads here and on the DB side and it is simply not worth it.
 
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#25
I remember seeing John Patitucci charts and he notates all the alterations. Looking for some handwritten Herbie Hancock charts right now.

Taking a step back, this is all a bit academic for a bass player doing a walking line especially one who thinks in terms of modes.
 
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#26
IamGroot said:
I remember seeing John Patitucci charts and he notates all the alterations. Looking for some handwritten Herbie Hancock charts right now.

Taking a step back, this is all a bit academic for a bass player doing a walking line especially one who thinks in terms of modes.
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Extensions are not alterations
 
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#28
Spin Doctor said:
Personally, I'd hesitate to use ALL CAPS and say that something is "wrong" in something as subjective as music, but hey, that's just me.
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Thanks for the warning, I'll take note ;-)

But there is nothing subjective about the rule that say that a chord symbol with an extension contains all the other notes below.
 
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#29
Fredrik E. Nilsen said:
And every guitarist I know will leave it out, usually. :)

(Edit: After what I've seen in writing, C13sus is much more common than Bbma7/C).
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This is because of the nature of the instrument tuned in fourths... In theory a chord with extensions contains all the other extensions below starting from the 7th. I am not making that stuff up, these are the conventions of chord symbols. I am aware that chord symbols in Jazz are standardized yet but still there are some rules that make sense and this is one of them.

The BbMaj7/C is a great way to express a 6-notes chord with fewer notes without having to go into a dictionary for a reference.
 
#30
Groove Master said:
This is because of the nature of the instrument tuned in fourths... In theory a chord with extensions contains all the other extensions below starting from the 7th. I am not making that stuff up, these are the conventions of chord symbols. I am aware that chord symbols in Jazz are standardized yet but still there are some rules that make sense and this is one of them.

The BbMaj7/C is a great way to express a 6-notes chord with fewer notes without having to go into a dictionary for a reference.
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Yes, as stated earlier: A 13 includes b7, 9, 11. And again, after what I've seen in writing, C13sus is much more common than Bbma7/C.
 
#33
Groove Master said:
Thanks for the warning, I'll take note ;-)

But there is nothing subjective about the rule that say that a chord symbol with an extension contains all the other notes below.
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OK. So you're saying all of these notes are played all the time? Or are you just saying the convention states that all of the notes are represented?

If it's the former, I'd say no, that's not true. If it's the latter, I'd say, ok. So what? I don't have all the answers, but to me extensions and alterations have to do with something going on in the melody line, or a sound the musician want's to hear, that's a function of the dissonance he/she found between some type of interval.

But overall, I'm not too keen on the idea of "rules" and "jazz" going together.
 
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#35
Fredrik E. Nilsen said:
You are welcome to prove me wrong. :)
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I cannot post protected material, but I just check my Sher Music chord chart which I really dig and yes there are some x13 sus in it. So it is useful. I apologize even if I love BbMaj7/C to express the same sound in a easy to understand way. ;)
Spin Doctor said:
OK. So you're saying all of these notes are played all the time? Or are you just saying the convention states that all of the notes are represented?

If it's the former, I'd say no, that's not true. If it's the latter, I'd say, ok. So what?
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What I am saying is that in a chord symbol with extensions (notes above the triad) all notes are part of the chord. It is up to the musician to voice it its own way. Like a Cmin11 will have the b7 and the major 9th in it but that doesn't mean the guitarist or pianist will play all the notes. Some voicings are actually impossible to play on guitar for example.
 
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#37
Groove Master said:
I cannot post protected material but

What I am saying is that in a chord symbol with extensions (notes above the triad) all notes are part of the chord. It is up to the musician to voice it its own way. Like a Cmin11 will have the b7 and the major 9th in it but that doesn't mean the guitarist or pianist can will play all the notes. Some voicings are actually impossible to play on guitar for example.
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I didn't realize that aspect was being debated. I don't think anyone was saying that "theoretically" all of the notes of an extended chord are not represented. It should be pretty clear that they are. They follow along like the letters of the alphabet. All of the letters line up in their proper order, but you don't use all the letters all the time...

Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue is. I saw something mentioned about not using the major 3rd and the 11th (4th) together. That's a common convention. There are many such conventions...

But chord voicings can get pretty personal. Which is a good thing. Otherwise, Bill Evans, would sound like Chick Corea, would sound like Herbie Hancock...
 
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#39
Spin Doctor said:
I didn't realize that aspect was being debated. I don't think anyone was saying that "theoretically" all of the notes of an extended chord are not represented. It should be pretty clear that they are. They follow along like the letters of the alphabet. All of the letters line up in their proper order, but you don't use all the letters all the time...

Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue is. I saw something mentioned about not using the major 3rd and the 11th (4th) together. That's a common convention. There are many such conventions...
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It was part of a wikipedia page posted earlier saying that in pop/jazz a C13 didn't have the 9th in it. I couldn't resist to jump in...
 
#40
Well this one got weird.

A chord is not a voicing, and a voicing is not a chord.

A chord is a chord. It will always be a chord. You can disagree about how it's notated, but the writer meant a very specific set of notes, and that doesn't change.

A voicing is one performer's interpretation of a chord. Some chord members may get omitted. Decisions have to be made, based on topmost melody note, leading voices, or available number of fingers. Or just preference, or even misunderstanding.

A voicing may be right or wrong, better or worse, in sickness or in health. But a chord is inviolate.

No one's arguing that a C7 is spelled C E G Bb. Now you may choose to voice it a number of good or bad ways.
 
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