Or it could sound better. Depends on the characteristics of the instruments in question and the preferences of the listener.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Pre-CBS Fender vs. "CBS" instruments vs. today
- Thread starter richnota
- Start date
Or it could sound better. Depends on the characteristics of the instruments in question and the preferences of the listener.
The early '70s were not a great period of time for instruments or automobiles.
-Jack Casady.
Not my opinion, but it seems to pertain to the discussion.
-Jack Casady.
Not my opinion, but it seems to pertain to the discussion.
Pilgrim (post #5) got it right. Some of the folks who are buying those old basses and guitars are doing so simply to have them and because they can afford them. I guess it's cool to be able to impress your buds in your high-end garage band.
As I've posted before on this forum, I used to own a Lakland USA Joe Osborne and it was just as good a bass as a good pre-CBS Fender in every way. No dead spots in the neck, great tone and very well built.
I've since sold it (kinda wish I hadn't now) and its replacement is a late model Highway One and, to be honest, the only thing the Hwy One lacks are the small frets the JO had. The Hwy One plays and sounds great as is. I feel no need for an early Fender or even the JO.
My point? An expensive and/or vintage bass is not necessary to do the job the aforementioned expensive bass does. IMO, YMMV, etc.
As I've posted before on this forum, I used to own a Lakland USA Joe Osborne and it was just as good a bass as a good pre-CBS Fender in every way. No dead spots in the neck, great tone and very well built.
I've since sold it (kinda wish I hadn't now) and its replacement is a late model Highway One and, to be honest, the only thing the Hwy One lacks are the small frets the JO had. The Hwy One plays and sounds great as is. I feel no need for an early Fender or even the JO.
My point? An expensive and/or vintage bass is not necessary to do the job the aforementioned expensive bass does. IMO, YMMV, etc.
I'm 53 yrs. old.
I grew up with 60's and 70's Fenders.
He's my take on this.
The Fender basses from 1958-1966 are the Holy grail basses.
They were made with aged wood.
This wood had a very low water content. (5%)
Hand wound pickups, Nitro-finishes.
They were hand crafted. ( not total machine)
The combination of this, resulted in a high number of consistent basses.
Also they age well.
Bass sounds better due to aging.
The basses from 1967-1973, were also very well made.
A small % less than the above years.
From 1975-1979, Fender QC went bad.
They used poorer quality wood, and mass-produced more basses.
This resulted in a lesser number of high quality bass.
Think, Sadowsky, and Lakland USA now.
They are the 60's type of fenders. being made now.
It's not when the bass where made.
It's how they were made.
People lust for old Fenders, because for sum degree they have,
time, mojo, and are just well made basses.
In thirty years, Sadowsky, Lull, Lakland USA, and other well made
basses of today, will be sought after.
In my experience, this post is 100%. I'm 44 and I started playing bass at 12 years old. I've owned quite a few Fender's over the time that I've been playing. I've never owned a pre-CBS Fender, -they were out of my price range when I was younger, and I certainly can't afford what they're being sold for now.
It was more economical for me to find a used CBS Fender with a nice neck and body and upgrade the parts that I felt were substandard with aftermarket parts. Nowadays CBS-rea Fenders are going for big money
. I guess it must be supply and demand. Generally speaking, IMO the majority of the CBS-era Fenders I've played and owned weren't on par with the pre-CBS instruments that I've played from a tone and construction standpoint. -Not to say that every pre-CBS bass that I've played was fantastic, but for the most part, I found them to be a superior instrument.I feel that my Lull gets the vintage Fender sound really well, plus it has a B-string
. I'm with Mojo-Man on this: The vintage Fender sound can be found in USA Lakland and Lull basses for a fraction of the price of a pre-CBS Fender. And judging from the sound of Nordstrand pickups, I feel it's safe to assume that Carey Nordstrand can build a Nordy with a sweet, vintage sound 
.I can't help but rave again about my ebay-special used MIA Standard P-Bass. Once I had it's stock pickup replaced with a Nordstrand NP4 pickup it's sound screams vintage. I have to say it's fit, especially it's neck pocket is superb. 95% of today's MIA Standard Fenders that I've checked out have been very well constructed. IMO a set of aftermarket vintage-tone pickups and a Fender MIA Standard bass will get you the vintage sound. The next step is to play the bass as much as possible for ten years or so to get the broken in feel of an older Fender
. If I had disposable income, and no buyer's remorse, I would certainly own a few pre-CBS Fenders
.This is just my 2 cents on the subject, YMMV.
IMHO, the feel can't be captured with the larger fingerboard radius that those companies' basses employ (with the exception of the DJ Lakland).
bucephylus said:
I don't find the finishes offensive. Any 'mordern' bass I've owned has had far thicker finishes than my 69 J or 72 P.
I'm only 34, so in this type of subject, I obviously wasn't playing bass in the 60's or 70's, to have such a heavy preCBS vs CBS opinion like some of the folks who were.
I find the 65-73ish instruments generally don't sound, feel or weigh really any different than the preCBS stuff.
Once you get into the tank-heavy northern ash stuff, yes a definite difference...same with the sloppy routs and neck installs of the late 70's era.
netbot said:
There's another local band we have booked alot of gigs with. The singer/guitarist is in his early twenty's, and laid that amount cash down for a '63 Strat, a bit of player wear, but 100% original.
Well, I guess we all have opinions; and that's a good thing.
However, I will never forget GRINDing the finish off of a ca. '75 P (because nothing could dissolve it), then letting it sit in my closet over the winter, and finally being amazed by the weight change the next Spring. But, that was just my experience. Maybe this was a Fender one-off. It was a clear coat, and the cracks in it looked like cracks in the ice on a lake. That finish was like 1 mm thick.
And, I didn't say I found the finish offensive. I did mean to imply that the permeability of water is slower. If you want to disagree with that, I guess we would have to go in the lab to get the data; but that sounds rather tiresome. So if you really disagree, I'll just concede.
And, BTW, my post was in response to the OP, who requested input regarding actual physical differences between the CBS and pre-CBS. IMO, the epoxy coating is a significant difference from the nitro. If you guys want to disagree with that, then fine; we can just get back to dissing the vintage market. That's useful.
Funny enough, my 1964 Custom Shop Team Built RI sounds nothing like a 60's Jazz Bass. It does sound like a Fender made 10-40 years later, thanks to technology, because it's really bright, even with a rosewood board, and it doesn't hum. Go Fig.
I really hope that in 40 years, people aren't talking about a few basses from a certain time period being the holy grail of bass tone. I would hope that people would be more concerned with the quality of music being produced, the industry actually backing great talent, while supporting the artists they admire and enjoy.
But then again, it probably won't happen since average people would rather argue about gear than practice, write music, or play in front of an audience.
Good point that I failed to address, and I've since editted my previous post.
IIRC it took me a couple of weeks of practice/gigging to get adjusted to my Lull's flatter fingerboard, but it's a 5-stringed model. On a 4-string, I assume one of the aformentioned companies would do a vintage Fender fingerboard radius, which I think was 7.25, as a special order.
I played 6 string guitar before switching to bass. Back as a teenager in 1979, I wanted a Fender Jazzmaster. There was all the talk about the pre-CBS Fender instruments. It came down to a choice between a 1959, pre-CBS Jazzmaster and the then current 1979, CBS one. The '59 guitar was better in a few aspects. Nicer wood - The '59 body was a single piece, the '79 was multi-piece. The '59 neck was made of clear, straight-grained, the '79 had waves and even a swirl in the grain. The '59 had great frets that were leveled and dressed well (the previous owner said that the guitar was like that from when it was bought new, no after-market fret work), the '79 had uneven, rough frets. Then there was the sound difference. The '59 had the classic twangy, punchy Jazzmaster tone, the '79 did not. It sounded much thinner without that nice punch.
Okay, so this is a single comparison between only 2 instruments from the different Fender eras. But this experience did prove to me that it was true that there is a difference between pre-CBS and CBS Fenders.
Fast forward to the present time and I think that today's Fender is doing quite well with many of their instruments. My 2006 MIA Precision bass is a fine instrument. I'm keeping it 100% stock since it plays, feels and sounds great as is.
Okay, so this is a single comparison between only 2 instruments from the different Fender eras. But this experience did prove to me that it was true that there is a difference between pre-CBS and CBS Fenders.
Fast forward to the present time and I think that today's Fender is doing quite well with many of their instruments. My 2006 MIA Precision bass is a fine instrument. I'm keeping it 100% stock since it plays, feels and sounds great as is.
I'll take a new USA Lakland over an old Fender any day of the week, unless we're talking about for resale value. In terms of a keeper player's bass, I'd never trade my Lakland USA for a Fender, pre-CBS or otherwise. I'm perfectly convinced that a better Music Man or Fender styled instrument tone-wise or quality-wise just simply doesn't exist.
Fenders (and SXs) are mass produced. They are nothing like Sadowskys or any other high zoot bass that are produced in very limited numbers in a small scale operation which can be closely monitored. The more hands touch a mass produced bass the more inconsistencies there will be. Fine dining is always better than cafeteria fare.
Jim Carr
Dr. Jim
- Jan 21, 2006
- 16,223
- 7,613
- 76
- Disclosures
- fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
+1
I am probably throwing gasoline on a multiple fires here, but in all honesty, as a geezer who started playing in '63 and who owns a good pre-CBS '55 P-bass, a good CBS '71 P-bass, has owned two other late '60s CBS era Fender basses, and played quite a few other pre-CBS and CBS Fender basses, I can honestly say that IMHO, it all comes down to the individual instrument.
Also, my Sadowsky totally kills any Fender I have ever owned or played. All IMHO.
Pretty much the same here. I currently only have 4 oldies, a '68, '72, '73, and '79. All P basses. Not much of a J man myself but I do have a recent AV '75 J that is an excellent example of J tone. I ditched my '55...well more on that later.
You're 1000% correct about it coming down to the individual instrument.
I ditched my '55 P in favor of my DIY RatRod J with an SCPB pickup which kills all the old or new Fenders I've ever played.
Instead of focusing on the age of the instrument, focus on the features of the instrument.
A car analogy is pretty good here.
Look at the Pontiac GTO.
Look at a 1966, 1967, 1968 and 1973 and 1974 GTO.
They're all GTOs. But they are all distinctively different- based on the distinctions of the model year. IMO, the 66 and 67 vehicles exude class and style. The 68-72 cars were cool. Then in 73- there's a distinct departure from the body style. Gaudy 1970s boat styling... Then in 74 the glorified Nova.
If you think the 73 and 74 body styles are cool and desirable- cool. I don't. But based on the GTO badge- and based on the availability of 64-72 GTOs, people will still pay more money for them.
Back to guitars.
I love the Pre-66 stuff. IMO, blocks and binding made the instruments look gaudy. In 68/69 it went to poly finish. The finish got thicker. The wood got heavier. The bodies were made of more pieces.
I hate the word "vintage."
IMO, the pre-66 stuff is "better." Remember that these instruments weren't always stupidly priced. In 1996 I got my refinned 65 Jazz for a grand. And I paid too much.
But once the prices of the "good" instruments skyrocketed, the 70s stuff was left. And then the prices on that stuff started going up- because that's what was available, and just based on the proximity of age it was deemed "vintage."
There's going to be people that have gems of CBS basses. There's going to be people that prefer the appointments of CBS instruments. However, the overwhelming majority of people that consider a 70s CBS instrument "vintage" are doing so, solely based on the age of the instrument and not the characteristics of the instrument. (Yes, I know my 65 is technically a CBS instrument, but it has the characteristics of a pre-CBS instrument.)
I believe the older basses were made with better wood. It all starts with the wood. As soon as guitar makers figured out people would still buy guitars made of cheaper, heavier wood, and make bodies and tops out of more pieces... The game was on.
There's going to be wonderful basses from all eras. IME, those wonderful basses are much, MUCH more difficult to find in the CBS era. All things considered, I'd rather have an early-mid 60s Fender over a "recent" Fender, and a "recent" Fender over a 70s Fender.
A car analogy is pretty good here.
Look at the Pontiac GTO.
Look at a 1966, 1967, 1968 and 1973 and 1974 GTO.
They're all GTOs. But they are all distinctively different- based on the distinctions of the model year. IMO, the 66 and 67 vehicles exude class and style. The 68-72 cars were cool. Then in 73- there's a distinct departure from the body style. Gaudy 1970s boat styling... Then in 74 the glorified Nova.
If you think the 73 and 74 body styles are cool and desirable- cool. I don't. But based on the GTO badge- and based on the availability of 64-72 GTOs, people will still pay more money for them.
Back to guitars.
I love the Pre-66 stuff. IMO, blocks and binding made the instruments look gaudy. In 68/69 it went to poly finish. The finish got thicker. The wood got heavier. The bodies were made of more pieces.
I hate the word "vintage."
IMO, the pre-66 stuff is "better." Remember that these instruments weren't always stupidly priced. In 1996 I got my refinned 65 Jazz for a grand. And I paid too much.
But once the prices of the "good" instruments skyrocketed, the 70s stuff was left. And then the prices on that stuff started going up- because that's what was available, and just based on the proximity of age it was deemed "vintage."
There's going to be people that have gems of CBS basses. There's going to be people that prefer the appointments of CBS instruments. However, the overwhelming majority of people that consider a 70s CBS instrument "vintage" are doing so, solely based on the age of the instrument and not the characteristics of the instrument. (Yes, I know my 65 is technically a CBS instrument, but it has the characteristics of a pre-CBS instrument.)
I believe the older basses were made with better wood. It all starts with the wood. As soon as guitar makers figured out people would still buy guitars made of cheaper, heavier wood, and make bodies and tops out of more pieces... The game was on.
There's going to be wonderful basses from all eras. IME, those wonderful basses are much, MUCH more difficult to find in the CBS era. All things considered, I'd rather have an early-mid 60s Fender over a "recent" Fender, and a "recent" Fender over a 70s Fender.
If I had 15K in disposable income and could play it and it worked for me, yes, I would (of course, I ride the bus because I can't afford a new used car, so the value of this statement is debatable).
Hands down, best bass I ever played was a refinished J, either 64 or 65. Tagged at about 7 grand. WOuld have bought it in a heartbeat if I had the cash.
I played a '64 Jazz which was just about the worst jazz I've ever played. As others have said, it comes down to the individual instrument with vintage stuff.
