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Pre-CBS Fender vs. "CBS" instruments vs. today

I bought a new 1975 Fender Stratocaster as a birthday gift for my brother for use at college (he was a music major). A year later he changed majors to engineering and gave me the guitar back. It was a beautiful guitar with ash body, natural finish and maple board. I loved the guitar, but I ended up giving it to a friend in 1979 who needed a guitar to gig with (he was in the same USAF unit as me and neither of us had much money). He gave me his cheapie Sony modular stereo system in trade. He definitely had better use of it than I did (I couldn't play guitar very well and he could).

I would pay quite a bit of money to get the exact model that I had (within reason). It's not that it was a great instrument. It’s also not about prestige or collecting. It IS about being able to get in touch with a piece of MY past. I think there are a lot of people that fit into my category. ;)
 
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I think it is just supply and demand economics. The supply is fixed (actually decreasing as they go off the market or are damaged / destroyed. The demand goes up because a couple of well known players, eg Marcus and Geddy, make statements with them. So, the price goes up.

I have no idea why this simple concept is so difficult for people to understand. The supply is steadily decreasing for the reasons you mentioned, and also because they're being bought up by collectors and investors.
 
In my experience, this post is 100%. I'm 44 and I started playing bass at 12 years old. I've owned quite a few Fender's over the time that I've been playing. I've never owned a pre-CBS Fender, -they were out of my price range when I was younger, and I certainly can't afford what they're being sold for now.

It was more economical for me to find a used CBS Fender with a nice neck and body and upgrade the parts that I felt were substandard with aftermarket parts. Nowadays CBS-rea Fenders are going for big money :confused:. I guess it must be supply and demand. Generally speaking, IMO the majority of the CBS-era Fenders I've played and owned weren't on par with the pre-CBS instruments that I've played from a tone and construction standpoint. -Not to say that every pre-CBS bass that I've played was fantastic, but for the most part, I found them to be a superior instrument.


I feel that my Lull gets the vintage Fender sound really well, plus it has a B-string :). I'm with Mojo-Man on this: The vintage Fender sound can be found in USA Lakland and Lull basses for a fraction of the price of a pre-CBS Fender. And judging from the sound of Nordstrand pickups, I feel it's safe to assume that Carey Nordstrand can build a Nordy with a sweet, vintage sound :bassist:.

I can't help but rave again about my ebay-special used MIA Standard P-Bass. Once I had it's stock pickup replaced with a Nordstrand NP4 pickup it's sound screams vintage. I have to say it's fit, especially it's neck pocket is superb. 95% of today's MIA Standard Fenders that I've checked out have been very well constructed. IMO a set of aftermarket vintage-tone pickups and a Fender MIA Standard bass will get you the vintage sound. The next step is to play the bass as much as possible for ten years or so to get the broken in feel of an older Fender :cool:.

If I had disposable income, and no buyer's remorse, I would certainly own a few pre-CBS Fenders :D.

This is just my 2 cents on the subject, YMMV.

Nice post. My only nitpick is that I don't think modern boutique clones have the vintage Fender vibe. I've owned some vintage Fenders, including a '64 P-bass that was second to none. I also owned a Lull P5 (passive) and currently own a Sadowsky P5 (with preamp bypass and VTC). They're both excellent basses, but I would not recommend either of them to someone looking for the vintage P-bass tone... the boutiques are close enough for me, but won't satisfy some purists.
 
Pilgrim (post #5) got it right. Some of the folks who are buying those old basses and guitars are doing so simply to have them and because they can afford them. I guess it's cool to be able to impress your buds in your high-end garage band.

Sure, some folks buy vintage for image. Same's true for some who buy fancy boutiques or any other kind of instrument. But as usual, blanket stereotyping is unfair, because some buy what they honestly feel is best. The bottom line is that everyone's entitled to his own opinion. And whether one thinks vintage is better or not, it's all opinion.
 
I think Pilgrim got it right. Are there some bad pre CBS Jazzes? Sure, but the odds are far better that you'll find a well MADE instrument then any mid-late 70's Fender. The QC was better, the wood availability was better, the finishes were better. I worked in a Music store in the late 70's and we sent back 3-5 out of every 10 Fenders because they were UNPLAYABLE without major work from the factory. Can you find a good post CBS Fender? Yep, it's just a lot harder. I can't tell you how many dog 70's Fenders I've played the last couple of years.

And for the record the pricing of 70's collectable Fenders is absurd. There is no way you could convince me that a Sadowsky, Celender, A/C or Lakland purchase wouldn't get you a better quality bass for the money. Also the Fender Custom shop 64's are GREAT basses and really cop the 60's vibe well. A great touring bass for the guy who loves Pre-CBS. And also remember no vintage instrument is better then it's set-up, maintenance, conditions it was kept in, and if it was lit on fire at Woodstock. Those kind of things do effect long term playability. :D
 
Sure, some folks buy vintage for image. Same's true for some who buy fancy boutiques or any other kind of instrument. But as usual, blanket stereotyping is unfair, because some buy what they honestly feel is best. The bottom line is that everyone's entitled to his own opinion. And whether one thinks vintage is better or not, it's all opinion.

I would agree that making blanket statements is unfair which is why I used the word "some". I also agree that folks have the right to buy what they want whatever their reasons for doing so.

The main point of my post was to point out that there are certainly alternatives to dropping the kind of money that is required to buy an old Fender. I'm not sure that I would buy an old pre'CBS Jazz if I had the money to do so. I have proven, to myself at least, that other basses will do the same job for much less money.
 
I would agree that making blanket statements is unfair which is why I used the word "some". I also agree that folks have the right to buy what they want whatever their reasons for doing so.

The main point of my post was to point out that there are certainly alternatives to dropping the kind of money that is required to buy an old Fender. I'm not sure that I would buy an old pre'CBS Jazz if I had the money to do so. I have proven, to myself at least, that other basses will do the same job for much less money.

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to others who do make blanket statements.

Even if I was convinced that the best vintage Fenders were better than the best modern ones, I could not -- as a player -- justify the expense of buying one. However if I had plenty of extra money, then I would -- as a player/investor -- go for a nice '58 P-bass or three. I wouldn't take 'em to gigs, but it sure would be fun to invest in something that might continue to outperform the market, and is a lot more fun than a stock portfolio.
:bassist:
 
Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to others who do make blanket statements.

No problem and no offence taken.

Even if I was convinced that the best vintage Fenders were better than the best modern ones, I could not -- as a player -- justify the expense of buying one. However if I had plenty of extra money, then I would -- as a player/investor -- go for a nice '58 P-bass or three. I wouldn't take 'em to gigs, but it sure would be fun to invest in something that might continue to outperform the market, and is a lot more fun than a stock portfolio.
:bassist:

I'm afraid I'd I'd have to play out with a pre-CBS Jazz 'cause I wouldn't buy it for any other reason. Of course, that would mean I'd have to chain it to myself or at least keep an eagle-eye on it when I wasn't playing it. It was bad enough keeping an eye On the USA JO I owned.
 
I bought a new 1975 Fender Stratocaster as a birthday gift for my brother for use at college (he was a music major). A year later he changed majors to engineering and gave me the guitar back. It was a beautiful guitar with ash body, natural finish and maple board. I loved the guitar, but I ended up giving it to a friend in 1979 who needed a guitar to gig with (he was in the same USAF unit as me and neither of us had much money). He gave me his cheapie Sony modular stereo system in trade. He definitely had better use of it than I did (I couldn't play guitar very well and he could).

I would pay quite a bit of money to get the exact model that I had (within reason). It's not that it was a great instrument. It’s also not about prestige or collecting. It IS about being able to get in touch with a piece of MY past. I think there are a lot of people that fit into my category. ;)
This is exactly why I don't let instruments get away from me.

I never want to have the one that got away.
 
My main axe is a '72 Jazz. Not perfect (minor fret buzz, some dead spots here and there), but I haven't played many instruments that sound better. Just for kicks I go into music shops and try some 60's J basses, many of them are superior to mine - but $5000-7000 superior? No way. I have a '98 as a backup - the sound is a bit more punchy and even across each string, but the overall tone doesn't come close to a good vintage jazz. My friend's Geddy Lee bass on the other hand does come very close, and plays very well too. That's a great choice if you want to get a good, authentic sounding reissue without having to even shell out thousands of dollars. Hope that helps.
 
Oh but there were some BAD ones (as with all Fenders of any age).

But there were some good ones too, remember Leo got the MM Stingray off the ground in 1976. Remember also that the Jazz Bass had a change in the early 70s Ash Body and a different pickup placement bigger frets also. Music of that era was changing too and the bright snappy J bass was coming into its own. The Ash body P bass had a hard hitting sound too.

On the bad side ... man were they inconsistant and many were HEAVY.


:) ... Love my 75 ... 4 bolt 9.5lbs rings like a bell, best Jazz I've ever played, what's not to love.

Great point about the music changing.

I haven't played my 78 Jazz with flatwounds but I can imagine I wouldn't like it now over roundwounds.

My take on this is that after the pre-CBS era everything sucked according to some people... whether they actually did or not was unimportant. It was far easier to make the generalization. So when the "experts" filled others' heads with that stuff, many of them believed it. There weren't a lot of skeptics then and there are people who've remained as unskeptical now.

In the meantime a whole generation of bassists came up who weren't glued to an Alder P bass. We weren't nostalgic for that tone so when we didn't get it out of heavy Ash basses... so what.

There are people who can describe chapter and verse just about everything that was "wrong" about the 70's Fenders. Fortunately there were others who'd just pick up the instrument, play... and sound fine.

:D
 
Snobbery. I have a 1963 P and although I'm extremely attached to it since I've owned it for 40 years, it's a bass. A nice one, but a bass. My 2000 MIM Jazz is every bit as good an instrument. If all the hoo-hah about the BIG difference in pre-CBS instruments were true, no instrument made after about 1967 would have increased in price...but they have.

NEVER underestimate the ability of human beings to delude themselves. If they want an instrument to sound better, it WILL. Doesn't matter if it has three strings and a pickup falling out of the body, it will still sound better to them than that lowly MIM Fender next to it. People can perceive anything they want to perceive.

Bull. Road apples. Horse hockey. Meadow muffins. [Insert favorite synonym here.]

In my NOT so humble opinion, if there are any differences in sound, they are NOT significant enough to justify a big difference in price.

The reason for the high prices of 60's and 70's Fenders is this: baby boomers have more money than they do common sense. They spend stupid money on instruments, muscle cars and other toys because those are the toys they played with when they were young. There doesn't have to be any reason, they just WANT them. And they'll tell you any rationalization they want you to hear in order to justify spending stupid money. Of course, there's also the issue that there are only so many old instruments around, and scarcity raises prices too.

And I'm 57, right in the middle of the baby boom, so I know whereof I speak. I want my 1966 Pontiac GTO back, but I won't pay stupid money for one, so I won't ever own one again.

The vintage instruments I buy are brands like Univox and Lyle that can still be purchased for under $300. No stupid money here. ;)
Nice post. But ain't it ironic how you could have bought your '63 P, and a Univox or Lyle for that same $300 back in the 70's. :):rollno:
 
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I saw a 1953 Fender P-Bass at a recent guitar show in my area. The vender wanted $25,000 for it. I shook my head as I walked by it. I can't fathom paying that much for a bass vintage or not. I think it's funny how 70's Fenders have skyrocketed in price now. I also remember when I started playing in the mid 70's that those Fenders were considered junk compared to the pre-CBS models.I laugh when I see the prices on them now. I can't comment on the newer ones as I haven't played many. But my old Fender/Warmoth mongrel Jazz Bass is a monster. Very heavy, but the tone is incredible!
 
My take on this is that after the pre-CBS era everything sucked according to some people... whether they actually did or not was unimportant. It was far easier to make the generalization. So when the "experts" filled others' heads with that stuff, many of them believed it. There weren't a lot of skeptics then and there are people who've remained as unskeptical now.

In the meantime a whole generation of bassists came up who weren't glued to an Alder P bass. We weren't nostalgic for that tone so when we didn't get it out of heavy Ash basses... so what.

There are people who can describe chapter and verse just about everything that was "wrong" about the 70's Fenders. Fortunately there were others who'd just pick up the instrument, play... and sound fine.

:D
This goes well beyond just picking up and playing an instrument. This is about finding a "match" for you. There weren't collectors after these things- Fifteen years ago, they were the "used" instruments that sat hanging on the wall for months for $400. Because there wasn't a collector influence on the pricing of the instruments- the price reflected their actual desirability to players- and their availability at those prices speaks about their actual desirability.

It's not so much 'experts filling people's heads with what's wrong with an instrument,' but more of people finding the general characteristics of a "good instrument" at odds with what 70s instruments fundamentally are. There's something to be said if an instrument "speaks" to you, but if what an "expert" says is "wrong" with a 70s instrument is "wrong" to you- then there's little to owning the instrument except for the "prestige" of owning a 35 year old instrument.

If you like 12 pound instruments- cool. I don't. Even when I was a 23 year old stud I didn't even want a 14 pound Travis Bean pulling my shoulder down. The "prestige" of owning Travis Bean S/N 117 wore off after a couple of months of playing the guitar.

If you like the feel of the thick poly finish- cool. I don't.

If you like the idea of the 3 bolt neck joint- and Fender's execution of that idea- cool. I don't. One of the most embarrassing guitars I ever had was either a 72 or 74 Telecaster Custom. That neck joint was so bad that if you strummed the guitar somewhat vigorously, the neck would slip- you'd be out of tune until you slapped upward on the neck while holding the body steady. Useless.

Add to that the leisure suit tacky big headstock on Strats...

The 70s were a time when there were different ideas of what makes a "good" instrument. Mass and Brass were in. A 12 pound instrument meant it gives great "sustain." These are generally ideas that have been relegated to obscurity. If you'll take note that most characteristic features of the 70s Fenders are gone from standard production today- and more closely resemble 60s instruments in weight and appearance.

My theory is there are more people playing now than there ever have been. Whether it's the availability of playable "cheap" gear or that the whole "play guitar and be cool" thing is perpetuated so much- I can't imagine a videogame about playing guitar being successful 10, 15 or 20 years ago. Boomers are more financially set, and may be picking up playing again, or for the first time. Fifteen years ago, this area would have never supported a Guitar Center. There was one big shop and several "mom & pops" that were never too busy. Now, there's a GC, that big store and those "mom & pops" are filled with entry level garbage where the "old" and "used" guitars used to hang.

Even 10 years ago, collectors weren't rabidly after pre-CBS "player" instruments- but once the clean ones were snapped up, there were only refins and repairs. Once those got snapped up- prices really jumped. Then the "next best thing" was a 70s guitar. Only difference is- they're not the same thing.

If you grow up with a 70s instrument, or find it's characteristics suitable to you- great. But 9 times out of 10 you'll hear "look at my cool, old, 'vintage' bass." Not "this thing is the most resonant pieces of wood you'll ever feel."

The collector pricing BS ruined the fun of "vintage" guitars for me. Although it may seem foreign, but there was a time, not all that long ago, that you could own a good "player" pre-CBS bass for under a grand. You could get beater 1950s Les Paul Juniors for $500 and clean ones for under a grand. You could play and own these instruments and figure out what you liked and didn't like. You didn't have a 70s Fender to be cool or to have a great instrument- you had one because you were broke.

You want to see how fast that collector pricing thing came about- Check out the Les Paul Forum. I remember around 2000/2001 the going rate on a "'Burst" was around 80-90K. Joe Ganzler went all ape and spent 125K on his burst- they're north of 200K now. Within a span of 10 years.
 
I'm well aware of the collector market, maybe moreso than you.
:)

I don't know where you were 10 years ago but there were most certainly collectors after pre-CBS basses as far back as 20+ years ago. They were touted as the holy grail and anything else was subpar. I remember being offered a stack knob Jazz in rough condition for $2k around twenty years ago.

Check and see how long George Gruhn has been around.
:D

And one more time, liking/disliking the instrument has next to nothing to do with it's market value. You can dislike poly all you want, it's have no effect on the market for those instruments.
:smug:
 
This goes well beyond just picking up and playing an instrument. This is about finding a "match" for you. There weren't collectors after these things- Fifteen years ago, they were the "used" instruments that sat hanging on the wall for months for $400. Because there wasn't a collector influence on the pricing of the instruments- the price reflected their actual desirability to players- and their availability at those prices speaks about their actual desirability.

It's not so much 'experts filling people's heads with what's wrong with an instrument,' but more of people finding the general characteristics of a "good instrument" at odds with what 70s instruments fundamentally are. There's something to be said if an instrument "speaks" to you, but if what an "expert" says is "wrong" with a 70s instrument is "wrong" to you- then there's little to owning the instrument except for the "prestige" of owning a 35 year old instrument.

If you like 12 pound instruments- cool. I don't. Even when I was a 23 year old stud I didn't even want a 14 pound Travis Bean pulling my shoulder down. The "prestige" of owning Travis Bean S/N 117 wore off after a couple of months of playing the guitar.

If you like the feel of the thick poly finish- cool. I don't.

If you like the idea of the 3 bolt neck joint- and Fender's execution of that idea- cool. I don't. One of the most embarrassing guitars I ever had was either a 72 or 74 Telecaster Custom. That neck joint was so bad that if you strummed the guitar somewhat vigorously, the neck would slip- you'd be out of tune until you slapped upward on the neck while holding the body steady. Useless.

Add to that the leisure suit tacky big headstock on Strats...

The 70s were a time when there were different ideas of what makes a "good" instrument. Mass and Brass were in. A 12 pound instrument meant it gives great "sustain." These are generally ideas that have been relegated to obscurity. If you'll take note that most characteristic features of the 70s Fenders are gone from standard production today- and more closely resemble 60s instruments in weight and appearance.

My theory is there are more people playing now than there ever have been. Whether it's the availability of playable "cheap" gear or that the whole "play guitar and be cool" thing is perpetuated so much- I can't imagine a videogame about playing guitar being successful 10, 15 or 20 years ago. Boomers are more financially set, and may be picking up playing again, or for the first time. Fifteen years ago, this area would have never supported a Guitar Center. There was one big shop and several "mom & pops" that were never too busy. Now, there's a GC, that big store and those "mom & pops" are filled with entry level garbage where the "old" and "used" guitars used to hang.

Even 10 years ago, collectors weren't rabidly after pre-CBS "player" instruments- but once the clean ones were snapped up, there were only refins and repairs. Once those got snapped up- prices really jumped. Then the "next best thing" was a 70s guitar. Only difference is- they're not the same thing.

If you grow up with a 70s instrument, or find it's characteristics suitable to you- great. But 9 times out of 10 you'll hear "look at my cool, old, 'vintage' bass." Not "this thing is the most resonant pieces of wood you'll ever feel."

The collector pricing BS ruined the fun of "vintage" guitars for me. Although it may seem foreign, but there was a time, not all that long ago, that you could own a good "player" pre-CBS bass for under a grand. You could get beater 1950s Les Paul Juniors for $500 and clean ones for under a grand. You could play and own these instruments and figure out what you liked and didn't like. You didn't have a 70s Fender to be cool or to have a great instrument- you had one because you were broke.

You want to see how fast that collector pricing thing came about- Check out the Les Paul Forum. I remember around 2000/2001 the going rate on a "'Burst" was around 80-90K. Joe Ganzler went all ape and spent 125K on his burst- they're north of 200K now. Within a span of 10 years.
:cool:
This is so true.
I lived thru it.

There where some good basses made in the early 70's. (1970-1974)
I know there were good basses made every year by Fender.
But, I'm talking about consistently good years.
But by, 1975 Fenders quality went down hill.
As said, Finish, Brass Hardware, 3-Bolt necks, trust rods, Pickups.
Poor quality wood. all made the mid- to late 70's Fender hit or miss.

In 1982, Fender got wise to this, and introduced the Reissue line of Basses.
Things got better again, for a while.
 
I'm well aware of the collector market, maybe moreso than you.
:)

I don't know where you were 10 years ago but there were most certainly collectors after pre-CBS basses as far back as 20+ years ago. They were touted as the holy grail and anything else was subpar. I remember being offered a stack knob Jazz in rough condition for $2k around twenty years ago.

Check and see how long George Gruhn has been around.
:D

And one more time, liking/disliking the instrument has next to nothing to do with it's market value. You can dislike poly all you want, it's have no effect on the market for those instruments.
:smug:
Brad, I have no doubt that you're more into the collector world than I am anymore. I've got what I want, sold off what I didn't and I'm content these days. I'm also broke. :smug:

There were people after pre-CBS basses as soon as those L plates ran out and blocks and binding started showing up, or as soon as the finish got thicker, or as soon as the weights started skyrocketing...

I also don't doubt your recollection of the stacked knob Jazz- it was a characteristic for such a short period of time, and it's relative rarity kept it at a premium, regardless of condition.

I think my point is not about liking or not liking an instrument- it's that the market value for pre-CBS instruments is based on the features of the instrument, whereas for 70s instruments it's based on the age of the instrument.

The "thick skin" poly finish and the boat anchor weight are not the selling points of those instruments- their selling point is that they're 70s instruments.
 
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This is how I see it:

Pre-CBS: Nice, but highly-variable instruments with good quality control. Less "green" wood used than today or during CBS-era.

CBS: At first, just as good as Pre-CBS. A transition-era 65/66 instrument is every bit as good, though I didn't care for the paddle tuners on the basses. Later on, as the factory machinery and resources became depleted and CBS ceased to support it, the instruments (and amps) were cranked out with poor workmanship, horrendous QC and overly-thick polyester finishes that were the rage du jour. The quality of lumber used seemed to decline, but you can still find good instruments from this era. Very spotty though. Mid-late '70's was horrific.

Current: Well, there's Fender production in the USA, Japan, Korea, China, Mexico, Indonesia.....probably some other countries soon. For my money, the Fender Japan stuff is the best. They feel "right", solid, and are more like the Pre-CBS stuff than even the USA RI's. The other stuff can be good too, but the Japanese gear just seems to be consistent from piece-to-piece.