Pre-Eq Signal?

[FenderB]

Being new to bass playing I find the terminology and the technology both fascinating. I read in another post of the bassist being asked to "send a pre-eq signal to the board". Please excuse my ignorance but what is he doing and what does that do at the board? Why does the soundman ask for that?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[JGbassman]

Pre eq is just that, the sound of the bass not colored by effects or the amp eq. In theory this will make his job easier, as he doesn't have to fight with a colored sound. right or wrong, it does have its place at times. It's usually done via the bass signal to a direct box, then the signal goes to the amp, where the bass rig is just a monitor for the bassist and does not have any input into the foh (front of house) sound.

Post eq is a signal, either from the amps direct line out, or from a mic on the cab, that takes the sound the bassist is getting from his rig and is used in the house mix.

The best in my opinion, is when a mix of a direct signal and a mic on the cab is used. The direct signal can tighten or notes, while the mic'd cab holds the body of the sound, adding the color of the combination of bass, effects, amp, and cab.

 

[el murdoque]

most FOH guys want the direct sound without EQ. Why? Because their cabs are not your cabs. While your head might be EQ'ed to have a perfect sound to drive your cabinets, it might sound terrible on the FOH and if you cut some frequencies on your EQ, the FOH can do nothing to bring them back. If you have a good FOH guy he'll listen to your tone and replicate it on the FOH. If you have a bad guy manning the board, you're doomed anyway.
When I started gigging, i felt insulted at first when he took my signal per DI in front of my amp.
That quickly changed when I helped out doing FOH and getting the view from the other side of the stage.
Nowadays, I set up my gear, plug into the DI on stage and have a quick chat with the soundguy, trying to tell him what I'd like to sound and why.

 

[Downunderwonder]

If you explain that you don't scoop all the mids out you can usually get them to listen to the post EQ.

 

[FenderB]

Pre eq is just that, the sound of the bass not colored by effects or the amp eq. In theory this will make his job easier, as he doesn't have to fight with a colored sound. right or wrong, it does have its place at times. It's usually done via the bass signal to a direct box, then the signal goes to the amp, where the bass rig is just a monitor for the bassist and does not have any input into the foh (front of house) sound.

Post eq is a signal, either from the amps direct line out, or from a mic on the cab, that takes the sound the bassist is getting from his rig and is used in the house mix.

The best in my opinion, is when a mix of a direct signal and a mic on the cab is used. The direct signal can tighten or notes, while the mic'd cab holds the body of the sound, adding the color of the combination of bass, effects, amp, and cab.

Thanks JG. You and el murdoque both mention a DI box in your post. So is the purpose of the DI box to send the signal from your bass directly to the sound guy's mixing board but still allowing you to use your amp as a stage monitor ?

 

[FenderB]

most FOH guys want the direct sound without EQ. Why? Because their cabs are not your cabs. While your head might be EQ'ed to have a perfect sound to drive your cabinets, it might sound terrible on the FOH and if you cut some frequencies on your EQ, the FOH can do nothing to bring them back. If you have a good FOH guy he'll listen to your tone and replicate it on the FOH. If you have a bad guy manning the board, you're doomed anyway.
When I started gigging, i felt insulted at first when he took my signal per DI in front of my amp.
That quickly changed when I helped out doing FOH and getting the view from the other side of the stage.
Nowadays, I set up my gear, plug into the DI on stage and have a quick chat with the soundguy, trying to tell him what I'd like to sound and why.

So you have no control in how you sound on stage while you're playing?

 

[dreamadream99]

So is the purpose of the DI box to send the signal from your bass directly to the sound guy's mixing board but still allowing you to use your amp as a stage monitor ?

Yes. Exactly.

So you have no control in how you sound on stage while you're playing?

Not at all. You control the stage sound with your amp; the sound engineer independently controls the audience sound in his mains with your board channel. You can't alter the audience sound, and he can't alter your stage sound.

 

[JGbassman]

Think of the di box as a splitter. One signal from the bass goes to your amp, the other goes to the soundman and the front of house pa. There are many lines of thought regarding this, and just as many opinions, but in the simplest form, you shape your sound at your amp and cab, and the soundman does the same at the foh board. Both the house and your rig are getting the clear uncolored sound of the bass.

 

[seanm]

So you have no control in how you sound on stage while you're playing?

No. I would say going pre-eq gives you more control. You can now do whatever you want to the EQ on stage to make it sound just right without affecting the FOH.

 

[FenderB]

So if I understand this correctly what the band hears through their amps (monitors) could be completely different from what the audience is hearing depending on how good the sound guy is. So in theory you could be sounding great on stage, what you hear, but like poopie to the audience.

 

[el murdoque]

So if I understand this correctly what the band hears through their amps (monitors) could be completely different from what the audience is hearing depending on how good the sound guy is. So in theory you could be sounding great on stage, what you hear, but like poopie to the audience.

Yupp, that's pretty much it.

 

[JGbassman]

I run a dedicated rack mounted preamp that is a tube emulator I set pretty much flat that has just a touch of compression. This is what I split and send to foh and then to my amp on stage. The preamp isn't there to shape the sound as much as for giving the tone a little warmth and fatness. When running in ear monitors the preamp really helps with the sound as well. I will often run a second mic'd line from my cab to foh as well, so he can blend in some of my tone if he wishes.

I've never had a sound guy have an issue with running the preamp/direct set up, but I've gone to great lengths to not remove any freqs they will need to create a good sound. The best thing is I don't touch the controls, so I'm not messing with the tone I'm giving him all night, much like s direct box. This also enables me to tweak my stage sound on the fly so it cuts through without infringing on the foh signal.

 

[G RICH 5]

So you have no control in how you sound on stage while you're playing?

You have control of stage tone, foh takes care of that. The nice thing is you can adjust your rig on stage without messing with foh

 

[JimmyM]

Sound techs can ask for pre-EQ all they want, but if they think I'm going to give it to them, they can take a flying leap. If I were a newb, I might do it, but they should be so lucky to have a bassist who knows what he's doing as well as I do, and be glad for whatever I give them.

 

[FenderB]

Thanks guy's I appreciate the information and help.

 

[MDBass]

most FOH guys want the direct sound without EQ. Why? Because their cabs are not your cabs. While your head might be EQ'ed to have a perfect sound to drive your cabinets, it might sound terrible on the FOH and if you cut some frequencies on your EQ, the FOH can do nothing to bring them back. If you have a good FOH guy he'll listen to your tone and replicate it on the FOH. If you have a bad guy manning the board, you're doomed anyway.
When I started gigging, i felt insulted at first when he took my signal per DI in front of my amp.
That quickly changed when I helped out doing FOH and getting the view from the other side of the stage.
Nowadays, I set up my gear, plug into the DI on stage and have a quick chat with the soundguy, trying to tell him what I'd like to sound and why.

That's not necessarily true; it may be on the local bar/club circuit with less experienced players and sound men, but not on the pro level.

Essentially all professional touring bands use pedalboards, which for bass players usually includes at least one preamp; ALL of those signals are post, and it's never an issue getting those signals to sound great in the house when all parties are pros and know what they're doing.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Seconding @JimmyM . If they want their signal they can provide backline too. If it's some run and gun shared stage situation, sure, I'll cooperate. If I'm a sub/hired gun and that's how the band does it, so be it, i'm not going to rock the boat. Other than that, they can take the signal that I have carefully shaped out of my excellent active DI box or amp. IMO taking the unprocessed signal from a passive bass straight to FOH is absurd to begin with. As if the board channel strip at a typical club or festival is going to be better than mine. I have honestly had very few problems over the years with this. I can really remember only one incident in the last decade or so where a soundman was absolutely adamant about using a direct bass tone, and wouldn't you know it, the sound was a shitshow all around.

Since you're new to this, you might want to play it cool until you get your feet wet, but once you know what you're doing, don't hesitate to make sure your best tone is heard.

 

[dreamadream99]

Ok, so let's say you have an awesome bass, and a regular amp. Send pre EQ to the board--let him get your awesome bass sound, not the crap amp sound.

If you have spent your career and your savings developing the perfect effects, amp, and speaker combination to generate your one-and-only sound, then mic that cab, and send him your life's work.

 

[DD Gunz]

Sound techs can ask for pre-EQ all they want, but if they think I'm going to give it to them, they can take a flying leap. If I were a newb, I might do it, but they should be so lucky to have a bassist who knows what he's doing as well as I do, and be glad for whatever I give them.

I agree. This just happened to me at a large outdoor venue last weekend. FOH wanted a direct pre EQ signal. I gave it to them as I had 5 minutes to line check and play.

My tone on stage was brilliant. Yesterday I watched a video of the show and the bass sounded like mud and it was hard to distinguish what was bass and what was kick drum at times. All subs and no tone. Terrible.

That being said, the audience could probably care less and that is not my normal expierence with FOH guys.

 

[kalle74]

Pre eq is just that, the sound of the bass not colored by effects or the amp eq.

Nope. Pre-EQ is just that. The sound of the bass not colored by onstage amp EQ. FX (excluding EQ) can be there.

The best in my opinion, is when a mix of a direct signal and a mic on the cab is used. The direct signal can tighten or notes, while the mic'd cab holds the body of the sound, adding the color of the combination of bass, effects, amp, and cab.

Agreed. My PB has a DI patched after tuner and octaver, and the rest of the fx (all drives and chorus) will be picked up via a mic at the cab grille.