Double Bass Preamp and EQ for microphone setup

[Flatbass]

Hi all,

I'm looking into amplifying my double bass using a microphone, most likely I will choose the DPA 4099. I'm also considering buying an active PA speaker down the road (for example, the QSC K10).

I'm still not so sure as what to buy for a preamp and EQ section. The Headway looks good, but supplies only 18v phantom power. A small mixing desk will also do the job, but maybe it's better to buy a dedicated preamp which is a little higher in quality. I also like my equipment to be rack mountable, as I travel with it quite a bit.

I was thinking about buying a single channel preamp, preferably 1 rack unit. I was looking for something in the price range of the Headway, but I can hardly find something around that price. The cheaper ones like the Art Tube MP can't be rack mounted and the Universal Audio stuff is too expensive. I was wondering if maybe any of you could suggest something.

Second, an EQ section. Most preamps don't offer any EQ at all, but I guess it's going to be nice to have some control over the sound. What do you all think about using a 31 band rack EQ like this one: 131s Single Channel 31_Band Equalizer :: dbx® Professional Products ? You could remove any unwanted frequencies and feedback quite accurately and create your own high-pass filter instead of using a on/off button at a fixed frequency like on a preamp.

Finally, what would be the best way to send the microphone signal to the PA? It would be nice if I the preamp also had a DI out, but unfortunately, most do not. What would be a good alternative? A DI box in between the preamp and EQ?

Thanks.

 

[Steve Freides]

Probably overkill but maybe not - any AI head. The original series had only 1/4" connectors but did feature one high gain input with an impedance toggle - what I use for my upright - and another lower gain, and the current line features a connector that'll accept XLR or 1/4" and provides 48 v. of phantom power. It's got 3-band EQ, a high-pass filter that I find myself using more and more as I understand what it does and why and when to use it, a direct out - pretty much whatever you'd want and power to spare.

You'd have to check the docs (or someone here can chime in) about how far back you still get phantom power if you're looking to buy used.

-S-

 

[Flatbass]

Thank you for you reply.

The Acoustic Image has exactly the features I need, but I don't really need another power amp and it can't be rack mounted. The power amp might be nice to have sometimes, but for the same money I can almost buy a Universal Audio preamp.

Buying second hand is not really an option. I'm located in The Netherlands and there is hardly any AI stuff for sale.

 

[Bob McHenry]

I would suggest looking into a D-Tar Solstice Preamp which can handle up to two mics.. The specs and pictures of the D-Sar Solstice are on the internet. The unit is made by the Seymour Duncan group and has EQ capability.

Bob McHenry [email protected]

 

[Ric Vice]

Hi all,
I'm still not so sure as what to buy for a preamp and EQ section. The Headway looks good, but supplies only 18v phantom power. ............

While it is true that the Headway EDB-1 only supplies 18 volts of phantom power it is workable. You have to increase the gain on Channel 2 (microphone) and there is some white noise into the amp but the Five Band EQ on the Headway is superb IMHO.[/QUOTE]

I was thinking about buying a single channel preamp, preferably 1 rack unit. I was looking for something in the price range of the Headway, but I can hardly find something around that price........

The Headway has a microphone stand mount that might address this situation, I find it very convenient. The DTar Solstice is a very nice two channel blender it's phantom power is 15 volts. Even the new AI amps
are only 38 volts. So unless you find a used one as Steve suggested or purchase a EA Doubler, you still under 48 volts.

Second, an EQ section. Most preamps don't offer any EQ at all, but I guess it's going to be nice to have some control over the sound. ..........

See Above

Finally, what would be the best way to send the microphone signal to the PA? It would be nice if I the preamp also had a DI out, but unfortunately, most do not. What would be a good alternative? A DI box in between the preamp and EQ?

The Headway has a DI out. It's post EQ, not perfect, but workable.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I did a trio gig Friday with sax and piano. The leader had a small PA with some Mackie (10"??) speakers and asked me to go into the PA, mainly so we could be heard outside on the patio. The club's outdoor system was tied in. I used my ATM35 with a tiny bit of pickup into the Headway which ran to the MB200/Acme B1. Long story short is that I completely forgot to turn on the GK head. Midway through the first tune, the leader bumped me in the PA and it was beautiful. It wasn't until I packed up that I noticed that the amp had been off all night. I was getting such a warm, fat low end that I was so proud of how full, yet indirect my amp sounded.
Yes, the mic gain on the Headway must be bumped up quite a bit compared to the pickup channel but once it's there, it works very well. When blending the mic with the Full Circle, I need to set the master volume in the range of 2-3 o'clock, PU at 9 o'clock and mic at 12-1 o'clock so you can see it's not that bad. The Headway is really an amazing sounding preamp. It's also incredibly easy to use and I can't imagine ever being without it.

 

[Nathan Levine]

I love the way the Headway sounds with the DPA 4099b, but I was unhappy with the extra bit of noise that running the DPA on the Headways 18v gave me, so I purchased a DPA MPS6010 2 channel power supply that powers the mic fully & beautifully with a 9v battery. The 9v lasts for up to 300 hours with just one channel being used. I've attached it to my quiver with a long piece of velcro that I wrap around the power supply and then around the quiver. It holds fine and looks OK too. The only downside is you need to disconnect the mic once you are done using it.

The Headway / 4099b combination is hands down the best way I have found to amplify my bass. The power supply fixes the one issue that I had with it.

 

[Ric Vice]

I love the way the Headway sounds with the DPA 4099b, but I was unhappy with the extra bit of noise that running the DPA on the Headways 18v gave me, so I purchased a DPA MPS6010 2 channel power supply that powers the mic fully & beautifully with a 9v battery. The 9v lasts for up to 300 hours with just one channel being used. I've attached it to my quiver with a long piece of velcro that I wrap around the power supply and then around the quiver. It holds fine and looks OK too. The only downside is you need to disconnect the mic once you are done using it..............

Macrotone,
I took a look at the MPS60102 and have a question or two. What is the voltage supplied by the device? How does it connect to the Headway?

Thanks

Ric

 

[Flatbass]

I'm sure the Headway or D-tar will work quite well, but I feel weird about spending almost €200 or €400 for a preamp that will not get the most out of the DPA and add a bit of noise. (I might add that I'm quite sensitive to noise, hum, buzzing fridges etc.) The DPA MPS6010 is almost €200 and runs on batteries. It's not what I'm looking for.

Ric Vice, I think the DPA MPS6010 will supply exactly the correct voltage for the DPA. I believe it uses 5 volts, but the only way to get the 5 volts to the DPA is by using a DPA microdot adapter like the MPS6010, or to use the microdot to XLR adapter like the DAD6001 which takes 48v and converts it into 5v.

Maybe a small mixing desk is my best best, after all.

Or... I do have a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, a firewire audio interface. I might use that as a preamp and add a 19" EQ section. That way, I have a decent preamp, 48v phantom power and it's all rack mountable. Then... I only need a 1u EQ, but which one? 31 band graphic or parametric?
I guess I'll use it to remove low end rumble, control feedback and adjust the sound a bit for different rooms.

Again, thanks for the replies! I really appreciate it.

 

[Ric Vice]

I'm sure the Headway or D-tar will work quite well, but I feel weird about spending almost €200 or €400 for a preamp that will not get the most out of the DPA and add a bit of noise. (I might add that I'm quite sensitive to noise, hum, buzzing fridges etc.) The DPA MPS6010 is almost €200 and runs on batteries. It's not what I'm looking for.

Ric Vice, I think the DPA MPS6010 will supply exactly the correct voltage for the DPA. I believe it uses 5 volts, but the only way to get the 5 volts to the DPA is by using a DPA microdot adapter like the MPS6010, or to use the microdot to XLR adapter like the DAD6001 which takes 48v and converts it into 5v.

Maybe a small mixing desk is my best best, after all.

Or... I do have a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, a firewire audio interface. I might use that as a preamp and add a 19" EQ section. That way, I have a decent preamp, 48v phantom power and it's all rack mountable. Then... I only need a 1u EQ, but which one? 31 band graphic or parametric?
I guess I'll use it to remove low end rumble, control feedback and adjust the sound a bit for different rooms.

Again, thanks for the replies! I really appreciate it.

Probably the best economical solution is to use whatever pickup you currently have send it to you amp and run the DPA to the mains where 48v Phantom Power is "free".
I generally use my DPA that way. The Ehrlund Pickup and Pre amp are so mic like that I rarely get the 4099 out unless it's a bigger venue.

Ric

 

[Nathan Levine]

Ric, Looks like Flatbass answered your question on actual voltage. As for connections, there are a number of choices with DPA's various power supplies. The one I went with connects to the HEadway via an XLR cable. That way when 48v power is available, I can use that instead of the battery if the Headway was left at home for some reason.

Of course, free power is best! An extra $225 for a power supply is a little excessive, but in the end, it works great and gives the mic the power it actually requires, which is considerably less than 48v. Also, the two channel is cheaper than the single channel so I went with the "box" vs the tube.

Nathan

 

[Flatbass]

I bought the DPA to replace my pickup, I'd rather not send it to the PA only while still using a pickup into a bass amp. My pickup sounds nothing like my bass, the tone, 'feel' and sustain are completely different. It's like playing a different instrument and I lose much control over the sound.

I got my DPA a couple of days ago. I guess that some of you may be interested in hearing my experiences with the mic, so I'll post them in this thread.

First gig. Background music with a guitarist and saxophonist. Quite a big, dead sounding room with around 75 people in it.
I used a small Soundcraft mixer into a Glockenklang head as a power amp into a not-so-good 15" bass cab. I used a 80Hz low end roll off to remove rumble and I also cut the bass frequencies (at 60Hz) a bit. It removed rumble while maintaining a full sound.
The sound was a lot like how my bass sounds acoustically, only louder. I really liked to hear details like the snap at the beginning of a note, finger noises and a bit of growl when I dug in on the low notes. One thing that really surprised me, where the notes in thumb position on the G en D strings. These notes came through with a clarity I never heard before. It seemed that these notes really 'jumped out' of the bass and sounded great too.
On the downside, the sound seemed a little bit less direct, but the overall sound is still way better than my pickup.

Second gig. Background music with a pianist and saxophonist. Also about 75 people, but this time in an acoustically horrible room. The sound was bouncing off of every wall. The piano and saxophone where amplified using a 2 PA speakers and 2 subs. I had the same setup as above.
It was very hard to cut through all that sound. The audience talking made almost all definition of my bass disappear, and the sound of the piano seemed to walk all over me. It wasn't more volume that I needed, but definition and clarity. I don't know what I could have done to make it any better and since there wasn't much time for adjustments, I just did the best I could with the sound I had.

Third gig. Same as above, only in a different room. The room was large and reverberant. Hundreds of people talking. This time I was put through the PA using the DPA while also using the DPA with my bass amp. I first put my amp on a flightcase in an attempt to bring it closer to ear level, but this caused feedback before I had the volume I needed. I moved the amp so that it was perpendicular to my bass, but it didn't help. I guess it's not a good idea to have the DPA at the same level as the DPA. I then put the amp on the floor where I could turn it up a bit more, but still not enough to hear what I was playing.
The pianist and saxophonist also had a hard time hearing themselves and requested that their instruments were put in their monitors. We played our first tune.
Now I was fighting the stage volume of the other instruments, the massive boom of my bass through the PA and the white noise of hundreds of people networking. Oh... and the sound engineers were nowhere to be seen.

For the rest of the gig, I kept trying different EQ settings and plucking styles to try to project more or have a clearer sound, but I couldn't find anything that really worked. I went home with some pain in my right hand fingers, and completely exhausted. The pianist said that the bass sounded much better with the microphone than with a pickup, but I didn't get to hear much of it.
The gig was not a very pleasant experience, but I doubt if it would have been any better using a pickup.

If any one is interested, I can keep adding entries to my 'DPA blog' here. Please let me know. The next things I'm going to try are:
using a GK 200Mb, put on a high table if I can;
using an SWR 4x10 instead of the 15" speaker;
using a PA speaker on a pole, some of the practise rooms in my school have these;
playing next to a drummer;
playing an actual concert instead of a background music gig;
Recording with it and comparing the sound to a T.bone large diaphragm condenser mic.

And if I can, I'd like to play through a Mackie or QSC power speaker at some point.


Oh, one more thing. English is not my native language. If anyone could point out any spelling or grammar mistakes I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[swingingoodtime]

+1 for active PA speaker on a speaker pole.

I've just started using an Audio Technica ATM350 on my bass, running it through a Samson +48V phantom power box into a Yamaha Stagepas 300 mixer/amp/speaker combo (just the one speaker with the mixer/amp mounted (also detachable) in the back). The stock speaker has been swapped out for an Eminence Beta 8a and I run it on a speaker pole at ear level. A friend of mine runs a DPA 4099 into an RCF 310A PA speaker, again on a pole.

In both instances, we've been able to get a very natural & acoustic (as opposed to amplified) sound that is easy to hear by the player for intonation as well as in the crowd, given that the speaker is no longer at ankle level. This also helps reduce feedback as the speaker is above the whole body of the instrument.

I'm contemplating trying a 10 or 12" PA speaker as the 8" lacks just a tad, plus maybe integrating a mini mixer with an EQ on the Send/Return to help dial out room resonances (the low B was MASSIVE in the room I played the other night) but overall this type of set up seems to be a winner for a very nice sound. Apparently Ron Carter uses this too (I've been told that he was using it on the gigs he did in Sydney recently, which I missed ).