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PREAMP BYPASS

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Thank you.

Are there any publications or sites you can recommend for helping to learn all these different signal paths and configurations? I am trying to get a clearer picture in my head of what is happening with the signal path and what that does to the sound qualities and how different paths would effect the strength of signal and audible quality.

I'm at work and can't look at the components right now but as I can recall,,,

plex- OUTPUT---SEND---RETURN---INPUT (1/4" X 4 on the top of the unit)

With that, I am curious what are the results using output vs. send to the RM500 input or fx return?

Ashdown manuals don't typically provide as much technical detail as some other manufacturers, so you will either need to get a peak at a schematic or use a bit of intuition based on the limited info the manual does provide to know how the signal flows through the amp. It becomes easier with experience and exposure to information. So check out a bunch of amps and manuals as @agedhorse has suggested.

I have uploaded a Mesa WD-800 manual. It has a block diagram near the end of the manual, which is very useful for answering the type of questions you have. Scroll down till the document reader indicates page 22 up in the banner bar at the top of the page. The block diagram will show where the Effects Loop falls in the circuit path and also indicate how the switching works. Note that the Effects Send uses a switching jack, but the way it is wired no switching occurs. The Effects Return, on the other hand, bypasses the preamp when a plug is inserted. The idea here is to allow you to slave one amp to another. Take a look at the jacks and see if this makes sense. The block diagram also shows the bypass for the semi-parametric EQ section.

Based on what the Rootmaster manual says, functionality of the effects loop and EQ bypass is probably fairly similar to the WD-800. This doesn't mean the amps sound or respond to inputs the same way, only that certain aspects of their signal flows are similar.

As far as whether it is better to use the Plex in the Input or Effects Return. The answer is related to signal matching (I.E max input level versus max output level of paired devices), impedance matching, etc. A preamp is designed to take a low level signal and boost it up to a higher level that can drive the following circuitry. But not all preamps are created equal. The amount of gain preamps provide and how much level they generate varies from one design to another. To answer the question, you need the range of input levels the Rootmaster can handle at the input, and it's sensitivity rating at the Effects Return. Also you need to know the nominal output and/or max output of the Plex. Interpret nominal as an average level with peaks and dips that go higher and lower.

For the sake of learning, take a look at the WD-800 manual on page 20, as indicated in the reader's banner. The bottom of the page is labeled 16. Note the specs say that with the input pad engaged, the WD-800 instrument input can handle 6.35VRMS with the input gain at 9:00 and the EQ flat. You could use an online unit converter to see that 6.35VRMS equals ~18dBu. So the input of the WD-800 will easily handle a line level input. Hint, you will want to get a feel for the difference between line level, instrument level, and mic level signals. Some effects returns are line level and some are instrument level.

Here is the online unit calculator I used. dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter calculation online attenuation loss gain ratio reference audio engineering sound recording dBFS dBVU 0 dB audio logarithm level converter peak to peak p-p impedance voltage pro consumer audio digital analog recording level - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Next note the Sensitivity at the Effects return is +4dBu (line level). This means you need peaks of at least +4dBu to drive the power amp to full power. So if your Plex cannot provide an output of at least +4dBu, you would want to plug it into the front of the amp instead of the Effects Return. Note the WD-800's Instrument Input sensitivity is -10dBu with the gain and master at 12:00. There is probably an assumption that the tone controls are bypassed or at 12:00 as well.

Unfortunately the Plex manual does not include specs for its output levels (see attached manual). You may be able to get the desired info by contacting GK. My intuition tells me the 1/4" output may be instrument level as the device is intended to work with other pedals. Whether it will be able to drive your Rootmaster to full power in the Effects Return depends on if the Effects Loop is instrument level or line level. I have also attached the Rootmaster manual so you can work through the specs and form an opinion. You will note the level for the Rootmaster's Effects Return is listed as 0dBu nominal. So this would be a line level Effects Loop

You may find that the specs indicate the Plex will work in either the Rootmaster's Instrument Input or Effects Return...in this case use your ears and the desired functionality to make the decision.

Input and output impedance is also a factor that can come into play. I am not really qualified to explain but I'll try to give you some ideas. In general if circuits are not specifically designed to work with each other, I believe you typically want the Input Impedance to be at least 10X the Output Impedance. Under this condition the impedance is said to be "bridged," and the load doesn't negatively impact the source. However, with circuits that are designed to work with each other, you may sometimes see the Input and Output Impedance are equal, as in the Rootmaster's Effects Loop. In reviewing available manuals in my collections, this is a bit unusual.

Ramifications: If the Input Impedance is too low, it can load the output of the preceding circuit down and degrade the frequency response. If the mismatch is extreme enough, I believe you could potentially damage the driving device, but this would probably be unusual unless you are pairing gear that is really not intended to work together.
 

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Ashdown manuals don't typically provide as much technical detail as some other manufacturers, so you will either need to get a peak at a schematic or use a bit of intuition based on the limited info the manual does provide to know how the signal flows through the amp. It becomes easier with experience and exposure to information. So check out a bunch of amps and manuals as @agedhorse has suggested.

I have uploaded a Mesa WD-800 manual. It has a block diagram near the end of the manual, which is very useful for answering the type of questions you have. Scroll down till the document reader indicates page 22 up in the banner bar at the top of the page. The block diagram will show where the Effects Loop falls in the circuit path and also indicate how the switching works. Note that the Effects Send uses a switching jack, but the way it is wired no switching occurs. The Effects Return, on the other hand, bypasses the preamp when a plug is inserted. The idea here is to allow you to slave one amp to another. Take a look at the jacks and see if this makes sense. The block diagram also shows the bypass for the semi-parametric EQ section.

Based on what the Rootmaster manual says, functionality of the effects loop and EQ bypass is probably fairly similar to the WD-800. This doesn't mean the amps sound or respond to inputs the same way, only that certain aspects of their signal flows are similar.

As far as whether it is better to use the Plex in the Input or Effects Return. The answer is related to signal matching (I.E max input level versus max output level of paired devices), impedance matching, etc. A preamp is designed to take a low level signal and boost it up to a higher level that can drive the following circuitry. But not all preamps are created equal. The amount of gain preamps provide and how much level they generate varies from one design to another. To answer the question, you need the range of input levels the Rootmaster can handle at the input, and it's sensitivity rating at the Effects Return. Also you need to know the nominal output and/or max output of the Plex. Interpret nominal as an average level with peaks and dips that go higher and lower.

For the sake of learning, take a look at the WD-800 manual on page 20, as indicated in the reader's banner. The bottom of the page is labeled 16. Note the specs say that with the input pad engaged, the WD-800 instrument input can handle 6.35VRMS with the input gain at 9:00 and the EQ flat. You could use an online unit converter to see that 6.35VRMS equals ~18dBu. So the input of the WD-800 will easily handle a line level input. Hint, you will want to get a feel for the difference between line level, instrument level, and mic level signals. Some effects returns are line level and some are instrument level.

Here is the online unit calculator I used. dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter calculation online attenuation loss gain ratio reference audio engineering sound recording dBFS dBVU 0 dB audio logarithm level converter peak to peak p-p impedance voltage pro consumer audio digital analog recording level - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Next note the Sensitivity at the Effects return is +4dBu (line level). This means you need peaks of at least +4dBu to drive the power amp to full power. So if your Plex cannot provide an output of at least +4dBu, you would want to plug it into the front of the amp instead of the Effects Return. Note the WD-800's Instrument Input sensitivity is -10dBu with the gain and master at 12:00. There is probably an assumption that the tone controls are bypassed or at 12:00 as well.

Unfortunately the Plex manual does not include specs for its output levels (see attached manual). You may be able to get the desired info by contacting GK. My intuition tells me the 1/4" output may be instrument level as the the device is intended to work with other pedals. Whether it will be able to drive your Rootmaster to full power in the Effects Return depends on if the the Effects Loop is instrument level or line level. I have also attached the Rootmaster manual so you can work through the specs and form an opinion. You will note the level for the Rootmaster's Effects Return is listed as 0dBu nominal. So this would be a line level Effects Loop

You may find that the specs indicate the Plex will work in either the Rootmaster's Instrument Input or Effects Return...in this case use your ears and the desired functionality to make the decision.

Input and output impedance is also a factor that can come into play. I am not really qualified to explain but I'll try to give you some ideas. In general if circuits are not specifically designed to work with each other, I believe you typically want the Input Impedance to be at least 10X the Output Impedance. Under this condition the impedance is said to be "bridged," and the load doesn't negatively impact the source. However, with circuits that are designed to work with each other, you may sometimes see the Input and Output Impedance are equal, as in the Rootmaster's Effects Loop. In reviewing available manuals in my collections, this is a bit unusual.

Ramifications: If the Input Impedance is too low, it can load the output of the preceding circuit down and degrade the frequency response. If the mismatch is extreme enough, I believe you could potentially damage the driving device, but this would probably be unusual unless you are pairing gear that is really not intended to work together.
Holy moly, I owe you at least a ‘semester credit’ worth of beer for this!:thumbsup::)

Your effort to take the time to pass this on is really, very much appreciated. I can only hope I can be so helpful when the time comes. I’m going to be spending some time chewing on what you wrote and making more sense of all of this. Mesa Boogie has a second to none reputation and I am seeing why more, and more.

Heading out for rehearsal right now but am looking forward to tearing into this.

Thanks Was!:bassist:
 
I had another idea about all of this and wondering if it'll work or not...

SIGNAL CHAIN:

bass ===> aby switch ===>

===>[path A] Mesa WD800 front panel instrument input

===>[path B] preamp/di box (ex. PLEX/DG Vintage Ultra/Ampeg scr-di) ===> amp head rear panel fx return

The intent is to use either the head or the external preamp at the press of the switch.

The part I think might be questionable is having the line [path B] to the fx return will cancel/interrupt the [path A] to the WD800 preamp.

The products I was considering to get this done are:

ls2_gal.jpg



twin-city-thumb-768x998.png


BigShot-ABY-thumb-768x844.png
 
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I'm following you on that.

To be more clear, barring signal issues with a switch or with an external preamp I'm assuming then that the aux in should not have any noise (hiss/buzz) and will have the same quality of sound that the fx return would?

If my idea isn't going to work, that's fine and I'll scrap the whole plan. My alternate plan is to just line up whatever miscellaneous pedals in front of the amp. I'd prefer to use the front of the WD with one combination of pedals and also have a completely different sound via external preamp at the touch of a switch.

From what I've gathered, it should work via aux in.

Thanks for the help:)
 
Yes, the aux in has the same signal sensitivity as the effects return but doesn't interrupt the normal signal flow from the WD-800's on-board preamp.

Be sure that whatever drives the aux input is capable of line level.
 
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Yes, the aux in signal path bypasses the WD-800 preamp but doesn't interrupt the WD-800 preamp's normal path like the effects return would do.
 
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I had another idea about all of this and wondering if it'll work or not...

SIGNAL CHAIN:

bass ===> aby switch ===>

===>[path A] Mesa WD800 front panel instrument input

===>[path B] preamp/di box (ex. PLEX/DG Vintage Ultra/Ampeg scr-di) ===> amp head rear panel fx return

The intent is to use either the head or the external preamp at the press of the switch.

The part I think might be questionable is having the line [path B] to the fx return will cancel/interrupt the [path A] to the WD800 preamp.

The products I was considering to get this done are:

View attachment 3701833


View attachment 3701834

View attachment 3701835
You might want to consider this one as well; The Orange Amp Detonator.
It can run on a 9v for several shows and the phase switch is handy. This fixed my hum and grounding issues that the others failed to do, YMMV.
Orange.jpg
 
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You might want to consider this one as well; The Orange Amp Detonator.
It can run on a 9v for several shows and the phase switch is handy. This fixed my hum and grounding issues that the others failed to do, YMMV.
View attachment 3703211
Thanks, I will look into that one, too!
Have you used any of the three I listed above? The flexibility of the LS2 seemed handy. The straight forward design of the Radial Eng stuff I like also
 
Thanks, I will look into that one, too!
Have you used any of the three I listed above? The flexibility of the LS2 seemed handy. The straight forward design of the Radial Eng stuff I like also
You're welcome :)
I used the LS2 to split my signal to two different amps, but had grounding and phase issues. It does other cool things though. I ended up using the LS2 as a loop. I put an Octave (Micro POG) and OD in a loop to kick in a faux rhythm guitar sound. I'm not sure if grouding will be an issue going into the same amp though.
I tried the Decibel Eleven Split Personality Amp Switcher and the MXR a/b switcher, but had grounding issues.
I had my eye on the Radial stuff as well, but a GC coupon swayed my purchace for the Orange pedal.

The LS2 has some other really cool features, but it take a bit to wrap your head around.
 
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Well, one cool thing is that you don't see them everywhere:cool: which is nice

The LS2 does look handy but I was a little concerned about noise, ground and possible out of phase issues. The Radial stuff seems like it took care of that with the switches. I'll likely get either the Detonator or the Twin City. The BigShot will possibly have a switch 'pop' noise and that'll annoy me.
 
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This is beefier, and may be a bit more than you need. Maybe not?

EHX.com | Switchblade Pro - Deluxe Switcher | Electro-Harmonix

It has internal polarity switches too. You can use it as a loop switcher, but it's also intended as an ABY box. May be nice to have adjustable levels for each output?

If you really want to get weird with it, the EQD Swiss things would let you run effects loops and ABY function...

Swiss Things Pedalboard Reconciler — EarthQuaker Devices
Yeah that seems to have the best features of what I’m looking at so far
Thanks
 
Well, one cool thing is that you don't see them everywhere:cool: which is nice

The LS2 does look handy but I was a little concerned about noise, ground and possible out of phase issues. The Radial stuff seems like it took care of that with the switches. I'll likely get either the Detonator or the Twin City. The BigShot will possibly have a switch 'pop' noise and that'll annoy me.
You aren't going to have any phase issues switching between single sources.

But ground looping noise has ruined many a hook up this in that for fun experiment.

Good name for the Orange ABY. If you use it to hook up two amps, have a fire extinguisher on standby.