Problem with Bass in IEM

[F-Clef-Jef]

I have my own mix, but its the above signal issue and the mad amount of bleed from the front monitors. The acoustic drums are in a box, but its not very tight.

But you bring up a good point: keep trying to work with the guys/gals to get it right.

Are you saying the monitors are bleeding past your in-ears? If that is the case, you don't have a good seal, which = bad sound . With properly sealing in-ears (I use Atrios with Comply tips), I can stand right next to the crash cymbal and it doesn't even phase me. It doesn't sound like you are getting your buds to seal in your ears. There shouldn't be ANY bleed.

 

[jaywa]

I'm using Atrios with the foam tips that came with the buds and getting a nice seal with those. The trick is 1) find the right size of tips and 2) work them WAY up in your ear canal so you get a nice fit and they don't come out (which was my biggest problem early on). If you've never had anything up your ears besides the occasional Q-tip you may be a bit squeamish about pushing something that far up into your head the first few times... but once you get used to it you'll really notice the difference.

Someday I may get some custom molds made but for how the factory issue foam tips are working fine for me. I can stand squarely between my hard-hitting drummer and my guitarist with a loud concert stack and not have any of their racket bother me at all.

 

[jmain]

Are you saying the monitors are bleeding past your in-ears? If that is the case, you don't have a good seal, which = bad sound . With properly sealing in-ears (I use Atrios with Comply tips), I can stand right next to the crash cymbal and it doesn't even phase me. It doesn't sound like you are getting your buds to seal in your ears. There shouldn't be ANY bleed.

The amount of bleed depends on the seal, no doubt, but also on the volume of the monitors or ambient noise. Can't seal it all out if its too loud.

edit: I believe my issue is ambient noise (monitors on stage instead of everyone on IEMs) and signal from the board.

 

[F-Clef-Jef]

I'm using Atrios with the foam tips that came with the buds and getting a nice seal with those. The trick is 1) find the right size of tips and 2) work them WAY up in your ear canal so you get a nice fit and they don't come out (which was my biggest problem early on). If you've never had anything up your ears besides the occasional Q-tip you may be a bit squeamish about pushing something that far up into your head the first few times... but once you get used to it you'll really notice the difference.

Someday I may get some custom molds made but for how the factory issue foam tips are working fine for me. I can stand squarely between my hard-hitting drummer and my guitarist with a loud concert stack and not have any of their racket bother me at all.

Ditto. And the volume of the in-ears is still much, much quieter than the ambient stage volume.

Like an earlier poster said, you can get the mix to where it is almost like you are playing along to a cd.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I've found that when I can hear more of a full band mix (even when some of my bandmates are not the strongest players), it helps me play more musically and better fit what I'm doing into the full band dynamic.

This. IME, "more of me mania" is the biggest problem affecting modern stages.

/RANT ON

There's a tendency amongst beginners and untrained musicians to play what they play, and expect the people around them to adapt. Little or no active listening involved. At that level of development, they simply don't understand that music is not an individual sport. Modern monitoring systems facilitate and even encourage this amateurish approach to making music, to the point that it's becoming prevalent even in professional circles. But the fact that something is prevalent, doesn't automatically make it RIGHT.

A person can play or sing with a surprising level of skill, without actually being a musician. Until they learn to listen to the big picture, and submit their contribution to the good of the music as a whole, they're just another wannabe. Speaking personally, any time I make a mistake that shows i'm playing for myself and not for the band, I feel mortified. The day that someone has to put brickwall limiter on my channel because I can't manage my own levels, I will slink away in shame.

This applies to every member of the band. Any singer who doesn't want BGV's in their monitor ("too distracting"), fails to understand that they are part of a collaborative vocal line. Any guitarist who carries too much amp and doesn't want to change their tone or level ("listen to how great that sounds soloed!"), fails to understand their role as part of a rhythm section. Ditto for drummers who can't adjust their dynamics to suit their surroundings, keyboard players who step on other people's notes, bassists who set "their" tone on stage rather than listening to how they sound out in the hall, etc.

I hate Aviom systems, not because there's anything inherently wrong with the technology, but because they encourage the whole isolated, de-humanized, click track-dominated process that is currently sucking the life out of popular music. I hate to say it, but these days I often hear far more passion, feel, dynamic control and musicianship when I'm mixing a world music act or listening to a classical music CD, than when I work with rock and pop bands.

How wrong is that? Rock music started out being about More. More energy. More feeling. More emotion. More rawness. It seems to me that we've lost our way, while those other guys still know how to listen to each other, and play together in an organic, cooperative way.

/RANT OFF

In order to answer his original question, the OP probably needs to manage the low end on his signal, work with the sound team to get excessive bass and low-mid clutter out of the Aviom feeds, consider getting new ear molds made (gaining or losing weight is all it takes to spoil the fit on your old ones), and/or check for bad drivers in his IEMs.

But he'd be light years ahead, if he could get with a team of musicians and technical people who really understand what it means to work together in front of a live audience, instead of being forced to try and replicate a studio isolation booth on stage.

 

[F-Clef-Jef]

This. IME, "more of me mania" is the biggest problem affecting modern stages.

/RANT ON

There's a tendency amongst beginners and untrained musicians to play what they play, and expect the people around them to adapt. Little or no active listening involved. At that level of development, they simply don't understand that music is not an individual sport. Modern monitoring systems facilitate and even encourage this amateurish approach to making music, to the point that it's becoming prevalent even in professional circles. But the fact that something is prevalent, doesn't automatically make it RIGHT.

A person can play or sing with a surprising level of skill, without actually being a musician. Until they learn to listen to the big picture, and submit their contribution to the good of the music as a whole, they're just another wannabe. Speaking personally, any time I make a mistake that shows i'm playing for myself and not for the band, I feel mortified. The day that someone has to put brickwall limiter on my channel because I can't manage my own levels, I will slink away in shame.

This applies to every member of the band. Any singer who doesn't want BGV's in their monitor ("too distracting"), fails to understand that they are part of a collaborative vocal line. Any guitarist who carries too much amp and doesn't want to change their tone or level ("listen to how great that sounds soloed!"), fails to understand their role as part of a rhythm section. Ditto for drummers who can't adjust their dynamics to suit their surroundings, keyboard players who step on other people's notes, bassists who set "their" tone on stage rather than listening to how they sound out in the hall, etc.

I hate Aviom systems, not because there's anything inherently wrong with the technology, but because they encourage the whole isolated, de-humanized, click track-dominated process that is currently sucking the life out of popular music. I hate to say it, but these days I often hear far more passion, feel, dynamic control and musicianship when I'm mixing a world music act or listening to a classical music CD, than when I work with rock and pop bands.

How wrong is that? Rock music started out being about More. More energy. More feeling. More emotion. More rawness. It seems to me that we've lost our way, while those other guys still know how to listen to each other, and play together in an organic, cooperative way.

/RANT OFF

In order to answer his original question, the OP probably needs to manage the low end on his signal, work with the sound team to get excessive bass and low-mid clutter out of the Aviom feeds, consider getting new ear molds made (gaining or losing weight is all it takes to spoil the fit on your old ones), and/or check for bad drivers in his IEMs.

But he'd be light years ahead, if he could get with a team of musicians and technical people who really understand what it means to work together in front of a live audience, instead of being forced to try and replicate a studio isolation booth on stage.

I'm pretty sure I agree with your rant 100%, And it's not just beginners! I hate playing with people that aren't listening, it's really frustrating, but I don't think the fault lies with the monitoring system. I had a great mentor when I was young, he always emphasized listening more, playing less, and don't forget to play the silence between the notes!

but:

/rant rebuttal on
You're not implying that all in-ear users are not listening to eachother are you? I can hear everyone else in the band SO MUCH BETTER than I could with regular stage amps. It takes playing together to a whole new level for me. I can hear every little detail of everyone's playing, (in stereo!). I don't feel even slightly isolated.
/rant rebuttal off


Totally agree about the click track (and using backing tracks, harmonizers and bad drummers) though.

 

[iridiumrocks]

/rant rebuttal on
You're not implying that all in-ear users are not listening to eachother are you? I can hear everyone else in the band SO MUCH BETTER than I could with regular stage amps. It takes playing together to a whole new level for me. I can hear every little detail of everyone's playing, (in stereo!). I don't feel even slightly isolated.
/rant rebuttal off

I agree. The IEM's, if mixed properly, take the band to a higher level since everyone can hear each other much better. You can also hear the same mix no matter where you move on stage, so you have more freedom to move around and are not dependent on a finding a spot where you can hear everyone correctly. They also make you a better player in my opinion since the bass does not get buried in the stage volume. And lastly, I love being able to drive home after a gig without my ears ringing.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

/rant rebuttal on
You're not implying that all in-ear users are not listening to eachother are you? I can hear everyone else in the band SO MUCH BETTER than I could with regular stage amps. It takes playing together to a whole new level for me. I can hear every little detail of everyone's playing, (in stereo!). I don't feel even slightly isolated.
/rant rebuttal off

I don't think I expressed it very clearly in my previous post, but my problem is not with the IEM's themselves. They're just a tool. And there are players out there that are making excellent use of that tool.

What frustrates me, is seeing/hearing players who don't have the fundamentals down, who turn to these technologies in a sincere but misguided attempt to avoid dealing with their real problems.

If:
- your sound people aren't capable of producing a good live mix with conventional gear
- multiple members of the band aren't listening to each other in the first place
- you have foundational problems, like a drummer who can't play the soft passages as well as the loud ones, a keyboard player who overplays, or a guitarist who doesn't know how to scale his sound to match the venue...

...then IEM's will just complicate your already over-complicated life. In stereo.

There's simply no really good alternative to mastering your instrument.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

...You can also hear the same mix no matter where you move on stage, so you have more freedom to move around and are not dependent on a finding a spot where you can hear everyone correctly.

...They also make you a better player in my opinion since the bass does not get buried in the stage volume. And lastly, I love being able to drive home after a gig without my ears ringing.

I totally agree with the first thought. It's proof positive that wireless IEM's can be a wonderful tool for communicating with an audience, in the right hands.

But the second one makes me want to spit. If your bass gets "buried in the stage volume", then someone else in the band is playing too loud. Ditto if your ears are ringing after the gig.

It's that simple, and that's not a technology issue, it's a lack of musicianship and/or common sense on their part.

 

[stingraysvt]

It actually took me a while of getting used to hearing my bass in the ears, but what really helped me was putting only my bass and my vox in the ears. I'd run my volume (on my body pack) way low (, input signals would be running at good levels, but not clipping) and let the rest of the sound "bleed" to create my mix, with ears, less really is more....


I had a mono unit with 2 channels that I could pass my bass and mic lines through going to the console so when I had a lack of monitor mixes this is what I did, I always ran either my bass or my vox through there (depending on the situation) and mixed in a monitor mix signal as needed.

The key was I was sending an uncolored signal to the PA from my amp / DI so running your bass flat might be the key. Using even very minimal EQ from your Active electronics... Boost the lows and mids a few notches (I said Flat tone not a sterile one) and send the FOH guy a flat sound to work with.

You should switch to a nice passive DI when using basses with active pickups and vice versa on passive basses, you should use an active DI.

I have both for this very reason

 

[jaywa]

I had the best stage sound EVER (31 years of playing), two weekends ago at an outdoor gig.

It was a street dance and the stage was one of those things that folds out from a semi trailer. The stage was the perfect height to put our sub cabinets (2x18, 3 per side) under the stage and our high-paks above them, on the stage. I was running my in-ears so I was getting the mids and highs from there and meanwhile all the lows from the P.A. were transmitting right through the stage. If I wanted mega bottom I'd walk over to where I was standing right over the subs... which sounded so good I almost screwed up a couple times. Otherwise I could pretty much roam the stage and have good to great sound wherever I went. All with a 150-watt, 1x12 combo as my sole backline. And no ear fatigue after a 4-hour show. Just awesome.

 

[David Jayne]

There's simply no really good alternative to mastering your instrument.

So true, and so often overlooked. Sigged.

 

[FretFree]

I've always had trouble with bass in headphones or iem's because we sense bass with a lot more than just our eardrums. Buttkicker makes a small platform you stand on while playing to get some of that tactile feedback without high volume. It's a great solution if you're basically standing & playing.

Big +1!

The Buttkicker rules! I run the bass lower in the mix and the overall mix lower because I can feel so much more of the music.

 

[jaywa]

I thought about getting a Buttkicker but I move around too much to be confined to a little platform. Also I believe it requires its own power amp and between the device and the power amp you're running into some money plus adding about as much complexity to set-up as just putting a bass rig up there.

I know a lot of people love the Buttkicker and it's certainly worth a look but it's not the answer for every situation.

 

[musicman7722]

I thought about getting a Buttkicker but I move around too much to be confined to a little platform. Also I believe it requires its own power amp and between the device and the power amp you're running into some money plus adding about as much complexity to set-up as just putting a bass rig up there.

I know a lot of people love the Buttkicker and it's certainly worth a look but it's not the answer for every situation.

My drummer uses VDrums with a loud amp and a buttkicker. he has to lug around a huge and heavy poweramp to run the Buttkicker. Seems overkill to me

 

[F-Clef-Jef]

I don't think I expressed it very clearly in my previous post, but my problem is not with the IEM's themselves. They're just a tool. And there are players out there that are making excellent use of that tool.

What frustrates me, is seeing/hearing players who don't have the fundamentals down, who turn to these technologies in a sincere but misguided attempt to avoid dealing with their real problems.

If:
- your sound people aren't capable of producing a good live mix with conventional gear
- multiple members of the band aren't listening to each other in the first place
- you have foundational problems, like a drummer who can't play the soft passages as well as the loud ones, a keyboard player who overplays, or a guitarist who doesn't know how to scale his sound to match the venue...

...then IEM's will just complicate your already over-complicated life. In stereo.

There's simply no really good alternative to mastering your instrument.

+100 (in stereo)! You are absolutely correct. I am in the fortunate position to be playing with some fantastic musicians. Guys who listen just as much as they play. No technology will ever replace that.