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Problem with Bass in IEM

#21
uhdinator said:
I use to jam with a few guys In a small basement and it was not anything serious so would plug the bass into a mixer with a pair of PA cabs hooked up to everything. Guitar player did the same. We played at very low volume but I was having trouble hearing notes and could not even tell if I was playing wrong notes. I looked at the guitar channel and noticed the LF 80hz was boosted. I backed it off and whoa that was it. I could hear what I was playing.......and then I had to argue with guitardist.. Sorry for the long story.

So..... Talk to your sound guy and see if there are 80hz HPF on each mixer channel. If so.... Tell him to turn them on for all channels except kick, bass, and maybe floor Tom. (IME churches usually have issues with LF anyway so cutting LF on toms too usually sounds better). If sends to aviom are post EQ and you have low/mid sweep EQ, cut some 150-200hz on guitar and vocal channels as well as some more 80hz LF on the channel Eq's if needed.

You may be obscured by too much LF in other instruments. I know when I mix recordings and I can't get bass and kick to set well together I cut everything below 180-200hz out of guitar tracks and boost a couple db at 50hz for kick and cut a few db of bass @ 50hz. Then cut some kick @ 200-250hz and leave some room for the bass.
Click to expand...

Really good advice here. :) Pros know the goal is to make the entire ensemble sound good, which happens when each musician subordinates his ego to the overall mix, and EQs accordingly.
 
#22
We have an Aviom system for the band and any singer that wants IEM's. They usually don't. The room seats about 1400 and the sound system is large. The sound people are excellent.

Everything in the Aviom comes in dry; meaning no reverb and no EQ. I run the bass straight into the mixer through a DI (BSS). The bass controls are set flat with the volume maxed (Zon Sonus 5 Custom). The sound guy adjusts the EQ on the house system to what he wants. (He has an EQ curve preset for each bass guitar in the band.)

I use SCL-3's with custom molded ear pieces. The bass on them is not that good but I find that I don't need it. I have lots of mids in the bass signal and can hear myself just fine. The loudest thing in my ears is the click.

If your church isn't using an in ear click then do yourself and your whole music ministry a huge favor and do it. It really takes everything to whole new level. Use a laptop with the click tracks playable as MP3's.

Graeme
 
#24
GML said:
If your church isn't using an in ear click then do yourself and your whole music ministry a huge favor and do it. It really takes everything to whole new level.
Click to expand...

Only if everyone in the band is capable of playing to a click and especially the drummer. Some can't, and if that's the case (especially the drummer), you're better off without a click. Trust me on this.
 
#27
I have the Futuresonics Atrio drivers in my band, and we use them 100% of the time. I've never had the problem you're describing exactly, so you may have a bad set of drivers. I did have one pair that went bad on me (left ear failed), so it's possible that's going on. Once that was replaced, I never had any other problems.

Something else to think about:

The only real issues I've personally encountered with IEM's have pertained to either transients (which distort everything else in your ears when they go over, and which need to be addressed with compression), and brickwall limiting from either the board sends or in the wireless receiver itself. If that happens, the loudest thing in the signal going to your ears becomes the ONLY thing in the signal, and you would lose everything else to a point where it becomes hard to hear.

I'm not sure if either of those is happening to you, but they might be things to watch for. I've used those Aviom systems, but not for quite some time, so I'm not totally sure if they work the same way.
 
#29
I've always had trouble with bass in headphones or iem's because we sense bass with a lot more than just our eardrums. Buttkicker makes a small platform you stand on while playing to get some of that tactile feedback without high volume. It's a great solution if you're basically standing & playing.
 
#30
Son of Bovril said:
A drummer that can't play to click!? ***... :rollno:
Click to expand...

You obviously haven't played many church gigs. ;) At least in these parts.

I use Atrios with an Aviom system in my church. In fact, just used them at rehearsal last night. They perform wonderfully in that setting but last night I tried something that kicked it up even another notch. The Aviom system allows you to not only set levels for each channel, but pan them. This week we have two electric guitarists and things were getting pretty cluttered in my mix with everyone straight-up so I panned one guitar moderate left and the other moderate right. Did the same thing with the keys and the piano. Wow. I was able to hear all those parts more distinctly, AND turn their levels down, resulting in a cleaner mix at lower volume.

Also, I know this topic is on IEM mixing vs FOH, but +1 to slotting the kick drum and bass guitar frequencies as recommended by uhdinator. My band does this exact thing and we get compliments on our sound at practically every show.
 
#31
> The Aviom system allows you to not only set levels for each channel, but pan them.
> This week we have two electric guitarists and things were getting pretty cluttered in
> my mix with everyone straight-up so I panned one guitar moderate left and the other
> moderate right. Did the same thing with the keys and the piano. Wow. I was able to
> hear all those parts more distinctly, AND turn their levels down, resulting in a cleaner
> mix at lower volume.

Panning like that does wonders!!!

kpinsonwv,
How do your IEMs sound with prerecorded music? Feed an iPod or similar into the Aviom and see what it sounds like. If your bass isn't cutting through in your IEM mix, is it even close to cutting through in the FOH mix?

- John
 
#32
+1 to slotting frequencies in the mix as the most helpful. Check this link:

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We use Avioms every week and are very happy with them in general. IMO, the suggestion to pan guitars can REALLY be helpful in separating things out.

One of the biggest problems we had with in-ears was the tendency to indulge the "more-me" monitor ability to the point where we were not listening to each other as well and not playing together. The click helped a lot to play in time together but we had trouble playing dynamically together. After using them a while, I find that I now set my bass channel just minimally louder than the other stuff, which helps me to listen to myself as part of the whole rather than playing a solo part along with other instruments, if that makes sense. I may not hear every little nuance of my tone, but I hear the whole band better, which helps me to play responsively and with appropriate dynamics.
 
#33
drgregn said:
+1 to slotting frequencies in the mix as the most helpful. Check this link:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

We use Avioms every week and are very happy with them in general. IMO, the suggestion to pan guitars can REALLY be helpful in separating things out.

One of the biggest problems we had with in-ears was the tendency to indulge the "more-me" monitor ability to the point where we were not listening to each other as well and not playing together. The click helped a lot to play in time together but we had trouble playing dynamically together. After using them a while, I find that I now set my bass channel just minimally louder than the other stuff, which helps me to listen to myself as part of the whole rather than playing a solo part along with other instruments, if that makes sense. I may not hear every little nuance of my tone, but I hear the whole band better, which helps me to play responsively and with appropriate dynamics.
Click to expand...

Excellent link. And yes, the more I use IEMs in both church and non-church settings, the more I find myself gravitating to a mix that is essentially the FOH mix with a ~ 10% boost to the bass and the non-essential channels (keys, guitars, aux percussion and backing vox) reduced vis-a-vis FOH but not eliminated altogether. The end result is more like playing along to a reasonably well mixed CD as opposed to a ton of bass, a ton of kick, a smidgen of lead vocal and pretty much nothing else which is what I used to roll with when I played with wedges.

I've found that when I can hear more of a full band mix (even when some of my bandmates are not the strongest players), it helps me play more musically and better fit what I'm doing into the full band dynamic.
 
#34
jaywa said:
Excellent link. And yes, the more I use IEMs in both church and non-church settings, the more I find myself gravitating to a mix that is essentially the FOH mix with a ~ 10% boost to the bass and the non-essential channels (keys, guitars, aux percussion and backing vox) reduced vis-a-vis FOH but not eliminated altogether. The end result is more like playing along to a reasonably well mixed CD as opposed to a ton of bass, a ton of kick, a smidgen of lead vocal and pretty much nothing else which is what I used to roll with when I played with wedges.

I've found that when I can hear more of a full band mix (even when some of my bandmates are not the strongest players), it helps me play more musically and better fit what I'm doing into the full band dynamic.
Click to expand...

Of course, when we're talking about EG players who like to use onstage amps in overdrive to the point where they can hear nothing else, that elegant equation can easily fall apart. Not that I have any personal experience with that... :D
 
#35
drgregn said:
Of course, when we're talking about EG players who like to use onstage amps in overdrive to the point where they can hear nothing else, that elegant equation can easily fall apart. Not that I have any personal experience with that... :D
Click to expand...

Yup, same here. My church is pretty much amp-free at this point (except for a bass amp 1 foot behind me that I turn up only loud enough to get a little "thump")... so not such a big issue there. My (cover) band outside of church though, is a different story in that regard.
 
#36
I use shure 5s with custom molded Westone buds.

I still bring my amp as a monitor pointed at my knees to "feel" the bass. I find the earphones/Avioms are brighter/midrangier than the real thing. I've given up on hearing what the audience is and trust my great soundman to do his job.

Avioms are exceptional at protecting our ears and getting more control, but for bass they still are lacking imho
 
#37
jmain said:
The front of stage (about 10' away) monitors are one mix geared for the guitarists.

I have my own mix, but its the above signal issue and the mad amount of bleed from the front monitors.
Click to expand...
so you're getting hit with wedges that aren't even your mix? with avioms, why are there even wedges up there?

in either case, turn away or unplug the wedge that's blasting you with someone else's mix.
 
#38
walterw said:
so you're getting hit with wedges that aren't even your mix? with avioms, why are there even wedges up there?

in either case, turn away or unplug the wedge that's blasting you with someone else's mix.
Click to expand...

Now that, sir, is an excellent question! They basically cheaped out, or deferred until time uncertain, when they would get Avioms for the ENTIRE band. Why, dunno. This has been the bane of my playing there.

The wedges are pointing at the singers' ankles (for their use) and blasting me out when I play. I've been playing about 2x/month since our little one came along. I've considered dropping it all together or turning my tithe into Aviom monitors + stands. That may take a long time, but may happen before they decide its really needed. Since its so heavy on the guitars, they're not complaining.

Tomorrow night is practice. I'm going to pull the worship leader aside once again to discuss. I'll just keep chipping away at him and the soundguys. Kinda ridiculous.
 

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