Projekt In Progress: "Jazz-Ray" Build

[Malak the Mad]

Thank you for contributing everyone! I'll try to answer all comments and questions as best and as thoroughly as I can. Please keep 'em coming!

When you say "JazzRay", I immediately go here:

Slap some humbuckers in there and away you go! (Though I like the idea of the singles myself. )

Your "JazzRay" thread is one of the first I came across when I started my initial research. It, and a couple other threads, helped me decide to co-opt the nickname.

Too bad I discovered it before I started digging around TalkBass. I would've encouraged you to skip the pickguard. I mean, that body is sooooooo smooth and shiny! It reminds me of a lake of unmarred, polished obsidian. Ah well…

That Delano MM pu with the j coil in the rear would make an interesting combo with a P pu. I'm not sure of the spacing but I wonder if its possible to keep the P pickup in the correct position and have the MM pickup in the correct position with the rear coil of the MM pickup near where a J bass pickup would be? 3 basses in one?

I'll definitely be discussing anything I learn here with my local guitar tech. (Let's call him "Mike" for the duration of this thread.) He's the one who will be doing anything involving power tools…routing, wiring, drilling, etc. He's the one who did the dirty work to turn my aforementioned Jazz bass project into a P/J configuration.

On a side-note, I've even considered having Mike just route out a square-ish section underneath the pickguard. Then we'd trace out silhouettes for each style of neck-side pickup I could ever want…spots for a Jazz, a Music Man and two different Precision positions (Blacktop and Reggie Hamilton-sig). I could even use different color markers for each, individual pickup position to "color code" them. All I'd need for a quick swap would be the pickup and the proper pickguard. (Another side-benefit…reduced weight, like that of a chambered body!)

I built something along these lines using a combination of Guitar Fetish and Squier Classic Vibe parts, turned out pretty good but not great, it's all passive with a volume, blend, tone setup with a coil tap on the mm pickup, I feel like it could benefit from an active preamp
View attachment 679963

When I first asked Mike, "Someday, could we take some time to measure out the proper distances from bridge to pickups to neck (obviously, re-justified to account for a 20-fret neck) for this possible project?", he said it wouldn't be a problem. But he also added it wasn't just positioning that's important. It's the preamp that gives a Music Man bass it's distinctive sound. Otherwise, it's just a bass with two humbuckers. So far, he's never steered me wrong and has proven time and again that he knows his s#!t.

I have a friend whose main bass is an 80s MIJ P Bass. When he got it, it had a G & L humbucker installed in the bridge position. He said it sounded great, but it over powered the stock pickup; it sounded like crap. He replaced it with a Duncan Quarter Pounder. Then it sounded great.
The QP had enough output to balance the humbucker, so they sounded good together, and when he used just the P pickup, he didn't have to contend with a significant volume drop. The tone of the two pickups was huge.
I'm not sure what kind of front pickup you want to use, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. I like the suggestion about using a Nordstrand big single.
(btw, another friend of mine has ordered a Nordstrand big single, that he is going to put in his single pu Jaguar bass. I'm looking forward to hearing it when he's done. It will be mounted in the MM 'sweet spot')

I had the opposite problem with the initial pickup choices I made on my last project. If you follow the link and look at the first round of pics, you'll see I used a Quarter Pounder P-pup alongside a Fender Super 55. The QP overwhelmed the 55 and made the overall sound too bright/clacky and robbed it of the inherit P/J versatility. It wasn't a good combination. It was solved when I got an MIJ standard Precision pickup. Now, it has a much, much more balanced sonic palette.

To avoid such "overwhelminess", I think I'd like to stick to two matched MM-style pickups. I started looking at the Nordstrand site, and as tempting many of their choices are, for the time being, I think I'd rather stick with something akin to their MM4.2's. That's where my head is at the moment, but who knows? I just might change my mind down the road or find something similar, but at a lower cost. I mean, I did say I'm looking to go "not too expensive" for my first go-around with this project, and one of those Nordy's costs more than I paid for the brand-new body. Besides, if the finished product isn't a total disaster, I can always buy a couple over time and replace when possible.

 

[ThatsYourName?]

Perhaps 'Jazzman' may also be a fitting name...

 

[Malak the Mad]

The retrovibe "stinger" preamp is just a copy of the 2 band mm preamp (which it sounds like you want). If you're willing to spend the money, then I agree with the general consensus that the Nordstrand mm4.2 is an amazing pickup, but with the preamp, anything similar should sound close.

On a side note, I recommend wiring your pickups with series parallel/switches, as you get two noticeably different, but very usable tones.

But definitely go for it, the "stingray conversion" turned my decrepit first bass into my joint number 1 player

So far, the Stinger is nudging up towards the top, but first I'll contact Dave at Retrovibe to ask him if it'd work with two pickups and a switching system. Fortunately, he's also here on TalkBass.

Whichever direction I go, I think I'm still stuck on doing a 2-band EQ, or at least, until I'm more familiar with how they work. Then, someday, I might consider a 3-band. It's the old "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" or "crawl before you walk/walk before you run" mentality I'm trying to embrace right now.

As far as "Series/Parallel" goes, I'll answer your recommendation by way of another question below.

I think i got some gfs mm pickups sitting in my parts box. I think i have 2 of them but one might have ended up in a sub ray 4 i had. But if thats the case i have one gfs and one stock sub ray 4 pickup.

That's a very tempting offer, Spaz…if it is indeed an offer.

I checked out the GFS Pro-Plus AlNiCo's on Guitar Fetish's site. For that price, they're quickly edging up to the top of the shopping list…doubly-so if enough people vouch for their overall quality and performance.

Again, I'm wondering if the S.U.B. config can be rewired to include a second pickup. And to that effect…

Here's another scenario to be added-to/picked-apart/shot-down as needed; Let's say I can add a second pickup to the S.U.B. circuit and instead of doing the classic 5-way switch, I wanted to do a "Series/Parallel" configuration instead. Would I be able to switch both pickups from one setting to another with a single ON/ON switch or would I need two, individual switches? I'm guessing the answer would be "one switch for each pickup", but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

Perhaps 'Jazzman' may also be a fitting name...

Y'know, what? That just might actually work!

JazzMan? JazzyMan? JazzicMan? Hmmm…this will require much more useless pondering!

 

[thehangingmist]

Two nordstrand big man pickups. Boom. Its been done a few times already. Will try to dig up those links later

 

[spaz21387]

I cant remember if the sub pickup has coil splitting. I can dig it out of my spare parts box and find out. I know the gfs mm pro can be split.

 

[spaz21387]

Just found it. The sub pickup only has 2 leads off it so it cant be split. Couldnt you get around that by wiring 2 splitable pickups to a 5 way switch and wiring that to the sub pre? Id still reccomend building your own pre.(or buying a nordstrand) The sub pre didnt sound nearly as good as the pre in my ebmm's... it sounded muffled kind of like someone threw a blanket over my cab.

 

[Malak the Mad]

I cant remember if the sub pickup has coil splitting. I can dig it out of my spare parts box and find out. I know the gfs mm pro can be split.

Just found it. The sub pickup only has 2 leads off it so it cant be split. Couldnt you get around that by wiring 2 splitable pickups to a 5 way switch and wiring that to the sub pre? Id still reccomend building your own pre.(or buying a nordstrand) The sub pre didnt sound nearly as good as the pre in my ebmm's... it sounded muffled kind of like someone threw a blanket over my cab.

Wow! All that effort just before 2am Western Time?! Maxi-big thanks!

Sadly, I may be able to grasp some of the basic concepts, but I wouldn't know the "hows" and "whats" of the finer points of wiring electronics. That's where I depend upon (tech)Mike, to do all the stuff that, in my mind, falls somewhere between Alchemy and Keebler Elf Magic. But considering what you say about the S.U.B.'s pickup wiring and performance, and if it's echoed by enough people, I think I can scratch that off the list of possibilities.

Is your extra GFS ceramic or AlNiCo?

 

[GMC]

Greetings, All!

I had a recent brainstorm regarding my next parts-bass project. I'm casting out to the "collective-y'all" for input and ideas (both general and specific), especially since I'm thinking of traveling into waters quite unknown to me.

I recently jumped on a smokin'-hot deal for an Arctic White Mighty Mite Jazz body that was too good to pass up. My first thought was to make a straight-up J/J out of it. I already have a set of Fender Super 55's ready to go and they'd most-likely sound great with Link Removed. But a curious though struck me the other day…what if I were to do an H/H Music Man-style configuration, along with a 5-way switch and preamp? How cool could that be?!

I did some searches for something similar, but the search parameters are too common and yield a bazillion results. I saw some references to "JazzRays", but they were mostly passing references with little hard data. However, I rather like the nickname, so that's kinda stuck with me.

Like I said before, this is unknown territory for me. I've never owned any kind of Music Man instrument, let alone delved into the finer points of it's pickups and electronics suite. That, and the only active bass I've ever owned didn't last long for me. (It wasn't the EQ's fault…it was a five-stringer, which didn't work out for me) So, I'm turning my brainstorm over to the good people on this forum to get whatever input I can. So armed, I'll ultimately decide if it's worth pursuing or if it should remain as "just a thought".

If I were to pursue this idea, here's a few things I definitely want or are amenable to;

1. Pickups & Electronics: Two pickups are a "must-have". I've grown rather fond of having that extra flexibility/versatility. I've also been looking at a rotary-style, 5-way switch in one Jazz control plate's pre-existing holes. (Volume/Rotary/2-band EQ perhaps?) Since I'm mostly accustomed to the simplicity of passive controls, I'm leaning towards a 2-band EQ…something nice and simple, but effective, to try out first.
2. Neck: Whatever direction I go with the electronics, I'm definitely going with some sort of Jazz neck. I'm seriously considering something from USACG…probably a 7.25" to 9.5" compound radius.
3. Hardware: I already have a Fender American Standard bridge, so no discussion is needed on that front. However, I doubt I'll be drilling out the body to make it string-through. I'll probably have to hit up Terrapin, or someone similar, for a custom pickguard. (For the record, no tort. It'll be gloss black to contrast the white body.)
4. Routing: Obviously some extra routing would be necessary. If I have to have a side-mounted jack installed, or a little more taken out under the guard for a preamp/battery/additional knobs or switches, that would be fine.

On the subject of #4; One side-benefit I discovered during my previous project was that I could always switch the neck pickup back to the originally-intended Jazz pup. Just swap out the pickguard and pickup, do a little rewiring…et violá!

One last thing, the "sordid topic of coin"…cost. I have no intention of going "bat-poop crazy" on electronics. I want something that will achieve something close to, if not spot-on, the classic Music Man sound, but without breaking the bank. If that means having to plunder the guts of a S.U.B. Ray and shoe-horn a second pickup into it or something like that, so be it. Obviously, I'll be keeping an eye on the TB Classifieds for bits and pieces, but if someone has first-hand, or even second-hand, knowledge of something that'll get the job done and not cost more than the neck, body and hardware combined, that would be awesome.

So now that I've established some parameters, I leave the rest to the "collective-y'all" for discussion and suggestions. If there's something I haven't considered, an omission/error, or a thread I missed that could help, feel free to hit me up with as many questions and references as necessary. I hope to learn a great deal during this project, much like I did during my previous one.

Many thanks in advance!
-Malak the Mad

A Music Man pickup is placed in a specific spot and it's placed so that it's hard to add other PU's either side. So a Jazz / MM combo would have the front Jazz in the usual spot and the rear coil of the MM in the rear Jazz PU spot. But it's not the proper place for a MM PU, it's normally further forwards. So a J/MM combo is very versatile, but it's not quite a J or MM...so it's a compromise.
AS much as I respect Jazz style basses, I've never particularly liked the off set body style. So I prefer P, MM, G&L or Lakland shapes.

 

[waseok]

I built something along these lines using a combination of Guitar Fetish and Squier Classic Vibe parts, turned out pretty good but not great, it's all passive with a volume, blend, tone setup with a coil tap on the mm pickup, I feel like it could benefit from an active preamp
View attachment 679963

What happened to the e string?

 

[Malak the Mad]

A Music Man pickup is placed in a specific spot and it's placed so that it's hard to add other PU's either side. So a Jazz / MM combo would have the front Jazz in the usual spot and the rear coil of the MM in the rear Jazz PU spot. But it's not the proper place for a MM PU, it's normally further forwards. So a J/MM combo is very versatile, but it's not quite a J or MM...so it's a compromise.
AS much as I respect Jazz style basses, I've never particularly liked the off set body style. So I prefer P, MM, G&L or Lakland shapes.

Keeping in mind your placement-assessment, I tried an admittedly non-scientific method of sighting out the positioning. Using Photoshop and the strictly-overhead, studio-quality pics from both sites, I laid one image over the other. Obviously, I only increased the overall scale of each image (no squashing or stretching) so the nuts and bridge saddles would meet up.

(For this, I used an American Special Jazz and a Music Man Stingray. The Ray is at 50% opacity.)

The MM pickup appears (emphasis on "appears") to take up the space of the bridge pickup, plus a bit of space towards the neck. It also looks like it would cut a little into the pickguard, which is no big deal at all. I know I'll have to get a customized pickguard to accommodate the neck pickup. It won't bother me at all if it has to have a notch removed to surround the bridge pickup as well.

As far as the neck pickup is concerned, all that routing will be covered by the pickguard, so I'm 100% certain I can get it in it's proper place.

I'll have proper and accurate measurements done when I next see (tech)Mike. Then I'll have a clearer picture of what will have to be routed out. And if there's a large-ish gap left over from the original bridge route, I have a few options for a cover to fit around the pickup. The people cutting the custom guard might be able to fabricate one, Invalid Link Removed and I have a friend with a 3D printer who could possibly whip me up something. Ultimately, I'm not going to lose any sleep over getting both pickups into their proper positions.

Oh, one last thing…if you don't like Jazz bodies, MORE FOR ME!!

 

[Awesome Sauce]

Pickup placement comparison

 

[Malak the Mad]

Here's a rough sketch, courtesy of Photoshop Elements, of what the final product might look like. I kept the spacing from the overlay I posted earlier, but stretched the pickups vertically to match the strings up. Hopefully, this one is a bit clearer than it's preceding image.

 

[Malak the Mad]

View attachment 680023 Pickup placement comparison

That's…well, awesome, Sauce!

The only thing that concerns me is how all of the bridge saddles aren't on the same axis. But everything else appears to line up nicely. Like I said before, I'll know more when I take the body in for some comparative measurements.

EDIT: There's also this comparison chart to ponder…

There is conflicting information on traditional pickup placements but that photo was the best I'd seen on a scaled visual comparison. From what I've read it does looks like a P + MM necessitates one or the other being scooted slightly from its traditional position but I think the overlap might only be 2-3 mm. Likewise an MM + J arrangement involves some placement compromise because it looks like the MM bridge coil is about 1/2" farther from the bridge (or closer to the 12th fret) than the 60's jazz bridge coil. What got me thinking about this was post #90 wondering where to place a switchable Big Single with a BigMan mounted in the Stingray "sweet spot". There is no one right answer but the mid-split P-bass location makes sense to me for providing a little more rounded tone without going too far that direction. With a single pickup narrower than the split P set, it should fit.

 

[Awesome Sauce]

Remember, bridge saddles are adjustable, and therefore, bridge placement shouldn't be taken into consideration for this type of measurement. The constant is the 12th fret (1/2 scale length), so that is what is used to determine pickup location.

 

[Malak the Mad]

Remember, bridge saddles are adjustable, and therefore, bridge placement shouldn't be taken into consideration for this type of measurement. The constant is the 12th fret (1/2 scale length), so that is what is used to determine pickup location.

So as long as everything falls into proper position within that half of the total scale-lenght, all is well, yes?

 

[Awesome Sauce]

Correct. Some people measure from the nut, but the 12th is easier, just as accurate, and thus, generally preferred.

 

[Malak the Mad]

Correct. Some people measure from the nut, but the 12th is easier, just as accurate, and thus, generally preferred.

That makes sense. Less clumsy to measure, less room to goof something up…all that Jazz. Thanks again!

 

[Awesome Sauce]

Np. Btw, your Blue Bass looked amazing. One my favorite parts builds I've seen. Wish I could've snagged it from you.

 

[Awesome Sauce]

Oh! Be sure to measure from the same side of the fret every time and across all basses.

 

[Malak the Mad]

Np. Btw, your Blue Bass looked amazing. One my favorite parts builds I've seen. Wish I could've snagged it from you.

Aww…yer makin' me blush!

Wait until you see the next round of pics! I've changed the bridge (Fender American Standard…they are about as elegant as a bass bridge can be), neck (Fender Aerodyne…the only way to fly! ) and a set of inlay stickers from Jockomo are on their way (complete with a customized 12th-fret inlay). Can't…freakin'…wait!!