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Double Bass Proper string height
- Thread starter 1dreday
- Start date
All of the above. It comes down to the type of player you are, the type(s) of music you play, and the type of sound you want to manifest. A good teacher should be able to advise you.
If you search the forums you'll find a wealth of advice on string height. For jazz, you'll find a lot of players that prefer heights at the fingerboard end of about (G-D-A-E) of 4/5/6/7mm to 7/8/9/10mm. Rufus Reid in his "Evolving Bassist" book has his bass setup at about 6mm on the G to 11mm on the E. You'll see there are many, many opinions about string height.
It really depends on what kind of strings on what kind of bass but some truth lies in lower string height = easier to play, less volume and higher string height = heavier to play, more volume.
As a beginner I would recommend another beginner to go for easy setup ( lower string height ) with both plucking ( pizzicato ) and bowing ( arco ) qualities. One can then raise the bridge while technique and stamina improves.
On my new bass I started with light gauge strings set up at app. G 4mm - E 7mm heights. Acoustic volume became an issue and therefore I changed to medium gauge strings now set up at G 6mm - E 9mm.
I practice both arco and pizzicato but the music I play with other people is almost pizzicato only.
As a beginner I would recommend another beginner to go for easy setup ( lower string height ) with both plucking ( pizzicato ) and bowing ( arco ) qualities. One can then raise the bridge while technique and stamina improves.
On my new bass I started with light gauge strings set up at app. G 4mm - E 7mm heights. Acoustic volume became an issue and therefore I changed to medium gauge strings now set up at G 6mm - E 9mm.
I practice both arco and pizzicato but the music I play with other people is almost pizzicato only.
I like a low-ish setup that facilitates athletic playing while still producing a strong tone...it's difficult to pinpoint standard measurements since every bass behaves differently.
Find what works for you...a good teacher and/or luthier would be able to help you more directly.
Find what works for you...a good teacher and/or luthier would be able to help you more directly.
Since so many of the responses are advocating a low-to-the-board setup, I'll chime in on the opposing side. I have mine setup so that I can get my index finder underneath the string and with a strong pull, I don't hear any buzzing. I think that's necessary for a good tone in jazz with an amplified setup. There's only so far you can gain in volume with an amp. Ampless is a different story altogether.
Some well developed players will probably disagree and they're not wrong, just different, but that's what Ray Brown did, John Clayton, etc, and that sounds good to me. If you're a beginner, than closer to the board might spare your left hand, but it will be at the cost of the development of your tone, which is not a trade I'd recommend. YMMV.
Some well developed players will probably disagree and they're not wrong, just different, but that's what Ray Brown did, John Clayton, etc, and that sounds good to me. If you're a beginner, than closer to the board might spare your left hand, but it will be at the cost of the development of your tone, which is not a trade I'd recommend. YMMV.
tcl has some words of wisdom above but the way I see this as a db beginner is that I want to be able to play music from the very beginning with the instrument, even with all of it`s technical and physical challenges. If I can`t keep my left hand going for the lenght of a simple 3 minute song, then it`s too much of an struggle and way too discouraging.
I see learning db technically pretty similar to training for marathon or such great physical challenge. It`s good to be done in a manner that doesn`t cause injury and keeps up the joy of running / making music on a db going at the same time. Baby steps.
Anyway, it`s all about tradeoffs and a learning curve.
I see learning db technically pretty similar to training for marathon or such great physical challenge. It`s good to be done in a manner that doesn`t cause injury and keeps up the joy of running / making music on a db going at the same time. Baby steps.
Anyway, it`s all about tradeoffs and a learning curve.
- Jan 24, 2002
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This works fine if you're using very soft, pliable strings like guts. Steel strings ought to be set substantially lower, though not everyone agrees on that point.
Also braided synthetic core strings are nicer with a bit higher setup, like Innovation Braided, Evah Weich, Obligato, SuperSensitive Sensicore, Kolstein Heritage. That way you avoid the problems with gut (sensitivity to climate changes, different bowing technique) and keep what you seem to need. Of course, you don't get that gut sound, but it seems that is not your ultimate goal. That works fine with a 6 to 9 mm setup (at least for me).
I think 5-8 will work for many players. 6-9 or more for heavy handed orchestral players and jazz musicians who really like to pull the string. It's possible to go lower for jazz as well. I have seen setups as low as 3-6. You can barely get the string moving at that height, but it works for some players.
I'm with TCL, I'll string it as high as I can handle. IMO, the actual height doesn't matter. What matters is the sound you're getting and how much you have to fight to get the sound you need. If you can get it with a low strung bass, great. If you prefer a strong round sound with lots of fullness and attack, it's likely you'll be looking for higher setups and more tension. The tradeoff is always playability.
The only way to find out is to try. Try different setups, try different strings. For each setup you'll need a minimum of 2-3 weeks to feel it out. That amount of time gives the bass a chance to adjust to the changes and your body to adjust to the setup. A more realistic figure is actually 2-3 months per setup. Strings don't begin breaking in for at least 1-2 months. Meanwhile by playing a certain setup for weeks your technique will adjust accordingly.
The only way to find out is to try. Try different setups, try different strings. For each setup you'll need a minimum of 2-3 weeks to feel it out. That amount of time gives the bass a chance to adjust to the changes and your body to adjust to the setup. A more realistic figure is actually 2-3 months per setup. Strings don't begin breaking in for at least 1-2 months. Meanwhile by playing a certain setup for weeks your technique will adjust accordingly.
So, I would never want to disagree with Paul because he clearly knows what he's talking about much better than I do. But, uh, I agree with Huy, who, uh, agreed with me.
I previously had Obligatos but about 2 months ago tried Evahs, which I'm liking. So, not guts but not steel either: hybrids.
I haven't measured the height of my strings but I know that I have them set as my teacher likes them. He was trained by John Clayton who was trained by Ray Brown so, this is clearly one way that works and produces good tone both un-amped and amped. You can hear my teacher on that George Clooney movie, Good Night and Good Luck. Great playing all around.
I have my strings set fairly high but not like guts. I can get my index finger well behind the G-string and pull that sucker into the next county, which is a l-o-n-g ways away here in SoCal. And it made an order of magnitude difference, to the better, in my tone. From kinda-okay-whimpy to commanding, along with the correct right and left-hand techniques. I don't want to speak for them, but I think it works for Lynn Seaton and Chris Fitzgerald, too. You could message Chris and I'll bet he can tell you how he has both his and his student basses setup to the micron.
I recently watched Jim Hughart play 10 feet from me and his action was quite low and he still got a great sound, along with Brian Bromberg, John Pattitucci, Mourie Louden, etc. If you don't recognize Jim's name, look him up. He's got cred as deep as it goes.
As I said previously, there's more than one way to make this work. In the past month, I watched John Goldsby, more than once, play the upright as if he were playing a bass guitar, and he still had deep, rich tone. I have no idea how he does it yet and I've tried. One more thing for me learn, heavy sigh.
I do recall when I first starting playing in thumb position that I had such a hard time keeping the strings down quickly that I had my luthier lower the action on my bass. A year or so later, I came to regret that decision because I had to pay the luthier, more, to install an adjustable bridge to get the action back up. At least in my case, my short term comfort wasn't worth my long-term goals and I only hope to pass my experience on to you so you can factor that into your decision. I would not say that good tone is worth getting tendinitis as you develop your technique. OTOH, if you practice and master the technique that Chris teaches, I would expect that your smart technique will make lowered action a non-issue.
Ultimately, you will have to decide what works best for you, and there are many, many valid ways to do that.
As usual, maybe the best advice is: pick a player who's playing you admire, study the hell out of them, better than they know themselves, and then do what they do.
I previously had Obligatos but about 2 months ago tried Evahs, which I'm liking. So, not guts but not steel either: hybrids.
I haven't measured the height of my strings but I know that I have them set as my teacher likes them. He was trained by John Clayton who was trained by Ray Brown so, this is clearly one way that works and produces good tone both un-amped and amped. You can hear my teacher on that George Clooney movie, Good Night and Good Luck. Great playing all around.
I have my strings set fairly high but not like guts. I can get my index finger well behind the G-string and pull that sucker into the next county, which is a l-o-n-g ways away here in SoCal. And it made an order of magnitude difference, to the better, in my tone. From kinda-okay-whimpy to commanding, along with the correct right and left-hand techniques. I don't want to speak for them, but I think it works for Lynn Seaton and Chris Fitzgerald, too. You could message Chris and I'll bet he can tell you how he has both his and his student basses setup to the micron.
I recently watched Jim Hughart play 10 feet from me and his action was quite low and he still got a great sound, along with Brian Bromberg, John Pattitucci, Mourie Louden, etc. If you don't recognize Jim's name, look him up. He's got cred as deep as it goes.
As I said previously, there's more than one way to make this work. In the past month, I watched John Goldsby, more than once, play the upright as if he were playing a bass guitar, and he still had deep, rich tone. I have no idea how he does it yet and I've tried. One more thing for me learn, heavy sigh.
I do recall when I first starting playing in thumb position that I had such a hard time keeping the strings down quickly that I had my luthier lower the action on my bass. A year or so later, I came to regret that decision because I had to pay the luthier, more, to install an adjustable bridge to get the action back up. At least in my case, my short term comfort wasn't worth my long-term goals and I only hope to pass my experience on to you so you can factor that into your decision. I would not say that good tone is worth getting tendinitis as you develop your technique. OTOH, if you practice and master the technique that Chris teaches, I would expect that your smart technique will make lowered action a non-issue.
Ultimately, you will have to decide what works best for you, and there are many, many valid ways to do that.
As usual, maybe the best advice is: pick a player who's playing you admire, study the hell out of them, better than they know themselves, and then do what they do.
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+1 for Chris Fitzgeralds left hand philosophy. Since I started messing around with stuff I found from his left hand tutorial video ( free on youtube ) more seriously and adding stuff to it from here and there, I`ve been able to raise my string heights and get significantly bigger and better sound with comfort and ease.
And the cool thing about Chris' approach is that it's not just organic, it's nearly, if not actually, scientific in its analysis. I near as can tell, it is so carefully considered that anyone starting the bass after him would have to be a fool to disregard his recommendations without very careful consideration. Fortunately for me, his method of managing the bass and my teacher's mostly align, so I don't have the burden of judging. I can attest that Chris' descriptions make it MUCH, MUCH, easier to play the doublebass, in my case. Great video series, IMO. On par with Gary Karr's contributions.
Yeah. That Bach etude in the beginning knowing how he sets up his bass ( insanely tensioned strings at medium height ) is something to aim for. That sound is marvellous. What I appreciate in his approach is that it`s very well reasoned and carefully explained while the attitude behind it all is very open-minded. If I just wasn`t some thousands of miles away he would be the teacher to search for. Sorry for offtopic.
Btw, Robobass had an interesting wiew on string heights somewhere here. He wrote that the acoustic volume is more about the amount of the bass top getting tension than the amount of air between the string and the fingerboard. String height " should " be more of an right hand issue, to get enough flesh under that string to get the sound. He pointed that if there`s a need to raise the string heights insanely high for volume reasons, then rather get the neck shimmed and / or reangled to get more tension to the bass without it getting too rough for the left hand.
Reiska and Robobass are right that the pressure on the top is the main issue for volume and sound, but if the strings are really close to the fingerboard, then the vibration bring them in contact with the fingerboard which weakens the sound. So I wouldn't go below 4.5 mm on G and 9 mm on E, even with steel core strings for sound (and plucking) reasons. If the strings are still too hard to play, I would try strings with a more stretchy/elastic core like synthetic/silk/gut. This is fine for the "pluckers".
BTW, to get the opposite (less top pressure) there is the possibility to raise the saddle to decrease the string angle at the bridge and therefor the pressure to the top. Unfortunately in almost all cases it is not possible to lower the saddle to increase the bridge pressure, so the bridge needs to be raised and probably the fingerboard angle might need a change if the action goes too high.
John Goldsby plays with touch (rotating the finger on top of the strings touching them). This is great if you need to play for a really long time or to play fast (smaller circles), but personally I miss the (attack) power I like in that kind of playing, even if John plays himself, in a small combo as well as with the WDR big band (I heard him live several times).
So to find a good setup to play is not only setting up th string height, but also take into account the playing style, string type, string tension and if needed the fingerboard angle. Don't look at them isolated, they interact in some way.
BTW, to get the opposite (less top pressure) there is the possibility to raise the saddle to decrease the string angle at the bridge and therefor the pressure to the top. Unfortunately in almost all cases it is not possible to lower the saddle to increase the bridge pressure, so the bridge needs to be raised and probably the fingerboard angle might need a change if the action goes too high.
John Goldsby plays with touch (rotating the finger on top of the strings touching them). This is great if you need to play for a really long time or to play fast (smaller circles), but personally I miss the (attack) power I like in that kind of playing, even if John plays himself, in a small combo as well as with the WDR big band (I heard him live several times).
So to find a good setup to play is not only setting up th string height, but also take into account the playing style, string type, string tension and if needed the fingerboard angle. Don't look at them isolated, they interact in some way.
From my experience on my basses, I have to disagree. I have had my G string as low as 2.5mm with fine sound. I believe it is currently 4mm. I generally recommend 4-7mm for an easy height. Of course, basses all respond in their own way as so do player's styles.
There isn't a "standard". It depends on the player, the strings, and the bass. For me personally, I tend to have a 2mm to 2.5mm gap between the bottom of my strings and the top of the 12th fret, while holding down the string at the 1st fret. I use a hex wrench to judge the gap.
This thread - a poll of TB users on their preferred string height - might be useful to check out, since a lot of the information the OP is asking about seems to already be there.
Tom and Resika - I have to say that I'm flatttered to be mentioned in the same breath with some of the players you are talking about, but I also have to add the caveat that guys like John and Lynn are mentors of mine and I wouldn't want to be compared to them as an equal since watching them and players of their caliber was a big part of my bass education. They were playing beautifully for decades before I ever touched a double bass, and I still feel a bit like a kid standing next to them in a musical context.
As for the rest, so much of that sound is in the hands and approach. This year at the Aebersold camps, John played both of my basses and sounded exactly like John. When Rufus Reid plays my bass, he sounds exactly like Rufus. My left hand approach is part an amalgamation of what I see other great players do, and part grew out of an obsessive desire to blend Aikido and Jiu Jitsu principles of drawing on the power of the core of the body to the physical aspect of music making; This all started in the 80's with the piano when I started studying Aikido. I'm no master martial artist by any stretch (more of an advanced beginner if anything), but those experiences were formative for me because I saw the masters I studied with in the dojo and the masters I studied with in the music studio doing a lot of the same things in their different spheres. It works for me, and I'm happy to be able to share some of those thoughts through the video series (and flattered that people seem to benefit from this), but I would never compare my pedagogy to that of those who have decades more experience and accomplishments on the instrument than I do.
Tom and Resika - I have to say that I'm flatttered to be mentioned in the same breath with some of the players you are talking about, but I also have to add the caveat that guys like John and Lynn are mentors of mine and I wouldn't want to be compared to them as an equal since watching them and players of their caliber was a big part of my bass education. They were playing beautifully for decades before I ever touched a double bass, and I still feel a bit like a kid standing next to them in a musical context.
As for the rest, so much of that sound is in the hands and approach. This year at the Aebersold camps, John played both of my basses and sounded exactly like John. When Rufus Reid plays my bass, he sounds exactly like Rufus. My left hand approach is part an amalgamation of what I see other great players do, and part grew out of an obsessive desire to blend Aikido and Jiu Jitsu principles of drawing on the power of the core of the body to the physical aspect of music making; This all started in the 80's with the piano when I started studying Aikido. I'm no master martial artist by any stretch (more of an advanced beginner if anything), but those experiences were formative for me because I saw the masters I studied with in the dojo and the masters I studied with in the music studio doing a lot of the same things in their different spheres. It works for me, and I'm happy to be able to share some of those thoughts through the video series (and flattered that people seem to benefit from this), but I would never compare my pedagogy to that of those who have decades more experience and accomplishments on the instrument than I do.
