Double Bass Proper string height

[Reiska]

Tom and Resika - I have to say that I'm flatttered to be mentioned in the same breath with some of the players you are talking about, but I also have to add the caveat that guys like John and Lynn are mentors of mine and I wouldn't want to be compared to them as an equal since watching them and players of their caliber was a big part of my bass education. They were playing beautifully for decades before I ever touched a double bass, and I still feel a bit like a kid standing next to them in a musical context.

As for the rest, so much of that sound is in the hands and approach. This year at the Aebersold camps, John played both of my basses and sounded exactly like John. When Rufus Reid plays my bass, he sounds exactly like Rufus. My left hand approach is part an amalgamation of what I see other great players do, and part grew out of an obsessive desire to blend Aikido and Jiu Jitsu principles of drawing on the power of the core of the body to the physical aspect of music making; This all started in the 80's with the piano when I started studying Aikido. I'm no master martial artist by any stretch (more of an advanced beginner if anything), but those experiences were formative for me because I saw the masters I studied with in the dojo and the masters I studied with in the music studio doing a lot of the same things in their different spheres. It works for me, and I'm happy to be able to share some of those thoughts through the video series (and flattered that people seem to benefit from this), but I would never compare my pedagogy to that of those who have decades more experience and accomplishments on the instrument than I do.

I see this the other way around: The fact that you are relatively a newcomer on DB comparing to elderly masters, makes you a great pedagogist.

You mastered and were able to play many instruments before DB and had a deep insight on music and musicianship. You had your insight on how body would work optimally in context of playing an instrument.

You didn`t have long history with DB, like starting as a kid and you propably weren`t stuck in any school of DB playing. You had your knowledge, open mind and tons of motivation with capability to study and compare.

And now you have fresh memories about the difficulties of DB as an instrument with well studied and reasoned ways on solving those difficulties. All of this makes you a great teacher, with some serious playing to go with it.

 

[Tom Lane]

Tom and Resika - I have to say that I'm flatttered to be mentioned in the same breath with some of the players you are talking about, but I also have to add the caveat that guys like John and Lynn are mentors of mine and I wouldn't want to be compared to them as an equal since watching them and players of their caliber was a big part of my bass education. They were playing beautifully for decades before I ever touched a double bass, and I still feel a bit like a kid standing next to them in a musical context.

Chris, I don't know when it happened, but you've mastered the instrument. I couldn't rank John, Lynn, Rufus, etc, but I know they're all masters and it's fair and reasonable to include your playing in their camp. All different too, which is just that much better!

 

[PaulCannon]

So, I would never want to disagree with Paul because he clearly knows what he's talking about much better than I do. But, uh, I agree with Huy, who, uh, agreed with me.

I'm not the voice of God, and I've been wrong before. Especially on this forum. I just thought it was worth pointing out that string choice makes a big difference, and your examples of Ray Brown and John Clayton used/use soft gut strings.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

I'm not the voice of God, and I've been wrong before. Especially on this forum. I just thought it was worth pointing out that string choice makes a big difference, and your examples of Ray Brown and John Clayton used/use soft gut strings.

Umm - I may have missed a pertinent post but Ray Brown used Lycon steel strings from about 1956, switching to Spirocore Weich in the early sixties after Lycon died.

 

[Brent Nussey]

Umm - I may have missed a pertinent post but Ray Brown used Lycon steel strings from about 1956, switching to Spirocore Weich in the early sixties after Lycon died.

And John Clayton never used gut strings, having come of age after the switch to metal. I think there's some misleading stuff here about Ray Brown, too. I had a few lessons with him and spoke with him a number of times. This was in the nineties, when he had Spirocore Weich or Solo strings on his bass, and very low (to me) string height. I'd guess 4-5mm under the G string. Until about 1963-4 he used gut strings, and said his gauge at that time was if he could slide his pinky under the G string at the end of the fingerboard, that was the best height. After the switch to metal strings, he said a standard pencil width was his gauge, and then over the later years it seemed to creep down a little more. He always had a big sound, regardless. Anyway, I'm not sure if you meant to say that you can put your index finger under the strings at the playing spot (that's how I read it), but Mr. Brown didn't play with such high string heights. Most guys did at the time, and one of his technical innovations was to get a huge sound with a lower string height, by using better plucking technique, and, he emphasized, enough left hand strength. A clear, strong sound without buzzing comes from having a strong enough left hand. The more flexible the string the more important (and obvious) this becomes.

 

[PaulCannon]

Ray Brown used Lycon steel strings from about 1956, switching to Spirocore Weich in the early sixties after Lycon died.

I'm not the voice of God, and I've been wrong before. Especially on this forum.

Thank you, sir. I'll show myself out.

 

[Reiska]

That`s very interesting information about Ray Brown`s sound and approach. Now when I`ve been messing around with string heights ( actually I`m on it at the moment ) I have really found that tradeoff side of it. When the strings are at, say 5 -8 or 6 -9 mm`s height, I get the acoustic volume without extra E string rattle, still with some ease of playing and beautiful mmmmwwwwaaahhing effect on the neck heel aaaaand somewhat playable thumb positions with sustain ( not like I spend a lot of time over there at this point anyway ). Half turn on the adjusters to take the bridge higher and some of that gentle side of sound is gone. I know that the top of the bass and the strings need to settle for some days, but still it`s a huge effect that a minor adjustment may cause.

And that`s my 10 months of learning to produce the sound. I`ve heard Dennis Irwin play with really beautiful, singing tone with that brutal setup of his.

 

[John Goldsby]

As I said previously, there's more than one way to make this work. In the past month, I watched John Goldsby, more than once, play the upright as if he were playing a bass guitar, and he still had deep, rich tone. I have no idea how he does it yet and I've tried. One more thing for me learn, heavy sigh.

Mmm . . . I would beg to differ because when I play electric, my technique is much different from my double bass pizz technique. The way I always explain my r.h. pizzicato technique:

1. My right hand is at the end of the fingerboard.
2. I strike through the string, rather than pull the string.
3. The r.h. index finger is moving in a slight circular motion, which is generated by the wrist (not from the elbow or shoulder). I often explain that it's like dribbling a basketball. The faster I need to dribble, the smaller the motion gets.
4. Once again, the r.h. finger strikes the string and gets off as quickly as possible, to get a loud, percussive snap. The motion determines the sound.
5. Your sound will not be big, warm, or in-time unless your r.h. attack is precisely coordinated with the left hand pressing the note down.
6. The left hand and right hand work in concert to get the tone out of the bass.

These right-hand techniques work with one-finger or two-fingers. In discussions with Ray Brown, Christian McBride and other bass players, we tend to concur that it's the left-hand factor that players ignore when working on getting a big, pleasant, warm sound. If the left hand isn't in sync, then nothing you do with the right hand will create a "good" sound (except maybe on the open strings). The left hand needs to be pressed down at exactly the right time, with exactly the correct amount of pressure to make the note speak / jump out/ or sing. Not too much pressure, not too little pressure — just the right amount.

I think I developed this particular way of playing r.h. pizzicato when i studied with Dave Holland in the early '80s. Later, hanging out a lot with Red Mitchell, I realized that technique is merely the way to realize a sound in my head. Whatever works to get the sound out is the correct technique.

That said, I think a lot of players could benefit just by making sure (1) their r.h. is low on the fingerboard, (2) they do not "hang on" or "pull" the string too long, and (3) the l.h. and r.h. are perfectly in sync.

To me, the string height is not as great an issue as the coordination between right and left hands. I generally prefer about 8 mm on the G string.

John Goldsby plays with touch (rotating the finger on top of the strings touching them). This is great if you need to play for a really long time or to play fast (smaller circles), but personally I miss the (attack) power I like in that kind of playing, even if John plays himself, in a small combo as well as with the WDR big band (I heard him live several times).

So to find a good setup to play is not only setting up th string height, but also take into account the playing style, string type, string tension and if needed the fingerboard angle. Don't look at them isolated, they interact in some way.

Very good points, DoubleMIDI. If you've heard me with the WDR BB, then that is (as you know) a combination of a lot of factors: big halls, lots of FOH amplification, tons of microphones, bass in various monitors. It's hard to know what it sounds like out front . . . Invalid Link Removed (Tech info: Jean Auray Bass, Spirocore Weich, Schoeps MK41 in front of the bass, maybe a DPA on the bass for FOH, Fishman Full-Circle PU into a Fishman Platinum DI into a Glockenklang Bass Art. But there's no DI in the mix, it's only mic. At 3:45, you can see the mic placement well.) At 10:00 in the video, there's a bass feature with lots of r.h close-ups (at 10:40 for example). It's a little wobbly — internet sound, but you get the idea.

Do we know each other from Cologne?!?

Hey Chris: As TCL & Resika point out—you're a heavy dude! I don't think it's the Jujitsu and Akido, though. It must be that special coffee you brew in your studio/office.

But seriously, right-hand technique is one area that is hugely different for different players. It depends on so many factors, and not every setup and every approach works for every situation.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

These right-hand techniques work with one-finger or two-fingers. In discussions with Ray Brown, Christian McBride and other bass players, we tend to concur that it's the left-hand factor that players ignore when working on getting a big, pleasant, warm sound. If the left hand isn't in sync, then nothing you do with the right hand will create a "good" sound (except maybe on the open strings). The left hand needs to be pressed down at exactly the right time, with exactly the correct amount of pressure to make the note speak / jump out/ or sing. Not too much pressure, not too little pressure — just the right amount.

Excellent point, totally agree. Too much pressure won't hurt anything sonically but it will slow you down and waste energy.

...technique is merely the way to realize a sound in my head. Whatever works to get the sound out is the correct technique.

Pretty much says it all right there. This is why I still revere my old piano teacher Doris Keyes' pedagogy so much to this day. She always asked, in every lesson, "what does THE MUSIC want from you here? Whatever it is, find a way to give it what it wants." Serious words to live by right there.

But seriously, right-hand technique is one area that is hugely different for different players. It depends on so many factors, and not every setup and every approach works for every situation.

Also a great point. There are so many ways of doing things, and what works beautifully for one player might not not work for another player at all and vice versa. As an example, there's a technique that involves plucking with the middle knuckle of the index or middle finger bent that I see a lot of players do, often sounding great while doing it. My hand simply won't do this, and when I try, it makes my forearm tendons hurt almost immediately. Clearly, this is not a technique for my hands, but for others it seems to be a mainstay. More power to 'em if it sounds good!

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Hey OBI-JOHN - that's a really terrific band! The trombone solo at ~15:00 is great.

And nice teacup little finger, too!

 

[John Goldsby]

Hey OBI-JOHN - that's a really terrific band! The trombone solo at ~15:00 is great.

And nice teacup little finger, too!

Thanks — yeah, I've always had a teacup finger. it never felt comfortable for me to tuck the 3rd & 4th fingers under. That seems like I'm tightening muscles that don't really need to be used, so my teacup finger just points wherever.

The trombone solo at 15:00 is Shannon Barnett, our newest member. She took Marshall Gilkes place (hard shoes to fill), and that was Marshall's farewell concert, and one of her first concerts.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

To me, the string height is not as great an issue as the coordination between right and left hands. I generally prefer about 8 mm on the G string.

Absolutely. Even with my lowish G string height of 4mm, I can still get into and "grab" the string to get a good attack and release. Of course if the string isn't firmly stopped by the fingerboard hand, the note and tone will be compromised.

 

[John Goldsby]

Hey Eric, I was just working (teaching alongside) Steve Rodby last week, and he spoke very highly of you. Just sayin'

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Hey Eric, I was just working (teaching alongside) Steve Rodby last week, and he spoke very highly of you. Just sayin'

Thanks, John! I hope we can meet in person sometime.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Very good points, DoubleMIDI. If you've heard me with the WDR BB, then that is (as you know) a combination of a lot of factors: big halls, lots of FOH amplification, tons of microphones, bass in various monitors. It's hard to know what it sounds like out front . . . Invalid Link Removed (Tech info: Jean Auray Bass, Spirocore Weich, Schoeps MK41 in front of the bass, maybe a DPA on the bass for FOH, Fishman Full-Circle PU into a Fishman Platinum DI into a Glockenklang Bass Art. But there's no DI in the mix, it's only mic. At 3:45, you can see the mic placement well.) At 10:00 in the video, there's a bass feature with lots of r.h close-ups (at 10:40 for example). It's a little wobbly — internet sound, but you get the idea.

I think it's not only the FOH and monitor thing, but it is also my personal thing what I like (or not). Everybody has it's own taste, it's just not mine (at the moment, tastes can change...). With an amp I know I sound much different than acoustically, the one can do is to keep the things that are important for himself. It gets hard to put my playing style on Spiros for a longer time, no problem with the synthetic core strings on my acoustic bass. That's what I meant why all things depend on each other. Even on the bass. On my Clevinger EUB the Spiro Weich 3/4 on a 105cm scale are really hard to play. It is fine for practicing (and stopping/changing the instrument when the hands get tired) or a rehearsal up to two hours with breaks, but not for a long gig. I handed the instrument to other bass players and both told me these strings on this instrument are rather hard to play. (The high C I need/want on that instrument don't allow Spiro Solos and I also don't like weaker lower strings like in the Solo sets.)

Do we know each other from Cologne?!?

Sort of. Rather from Frankfurt (but I live a lot closer to Cologne, almost around the corner). Maybe you remember this german guy with a lot of high C strings? I mailed you a list several years ago...

 

[Tom Lane]

Mmm . . . I would beg to differ because when I play electric, my technique is much different from my double bass pizz technique. The way I always explain my r.h. pizzicato technique:

1. My right hand is at the end of the fingerboard.
2. I strike through the string, rather than pull the string.
3. The r.h. index finger is moving in a slight circular motion, which is generated by the wrist (not from the elbow or shoulder). I often explain that it's like dribbling a basketball. The faster I need to dribble, the smaller the motion gets.
4. Once again, the r.h. finger strikes the string and gets off as quickly as possible, to get a loud, percussive snap. The motion determines the sound.
5. Your sound will not be big, warm, or in-time unless your r.h. attack is precisely coordinated with the left hand pressing the note down.
6. The left hand and right hand work in concert to get the tone out of the bass.

These right-hand techniques work with one-finger or two-fingers. In discussions with Ray Brown, Christian McBride and other bass players, we tend to concur that it's the left-hand factor that players ignore when working on getting a big, pleasant, warm sound. If the left hand isn't in sync, then nothing you do with the right hand will create a "good" sound (except maybe on the open strings). The left hand needs to be pressed down at exactly the right time, with exactly the correct amount of pressure to make the note speak / jump out/ or sing. Not too much pressure, not too little pressure — just the right amount.

I think I developed this particular way of playing r.h. pizzicato when i studied with Dave Holland in the early '80s. Later, hanging out a lot with Red Mitchell, I realized that technique is merely the way to realize a sound in my head. Whatever works to get the sound out is the correct technique.

That said, I think a lot of players could benefit just by making sure (1) their r.h. is low on the fingerboard, (2) they do not "hang on" or "pull" the string too long, and (3) the l.h. and r.h. are perfectly in sync.

To me, the string height is not as great an issue as the coordination between right and left hands. I generally prefer about 8 mm on the G string.

John, I'll be sending you my check to you tomorrow. Another example of how great TalkBass can be!

 

[John Goldsby]

tcl: No need to send a check, but you could make a donation to the "Fund For Wayward Bassists."

DoubleMIDI: Of course, I remember you now — the "high C string guy."

This thread veers off topic because there's no easy answer, except to take a poll of who uses which string height, when, on which bass, with which strings, and in which circumstances. I have no academic titles, but I think this would make a good Doctor's thesis for someone.

So, to stay slightly off topic, I've been watching a lot of Charlie Haden videos lately, and I came across this one of him in duo with Pat Metheny playing a blues. It's a great example of a bassist using the technique that they need to get the sound that they hear. Charlie's not playing at the end of the fingerboard (like I usually do), rather up on the fingerboard. This seems to work for me also if I'm using gut strings (his G & D are gut). He's got his right-hand 3rd finger tucked under, and the pinky finger out. His l.h. and r.h. are certainly coordinated in the way that he hears it to make his sound. I think Charlie probably had a rather high string height for a jazz player.

Bass walking/solo at 3:53

 

[John Goldsby]

Back on topic: When I was playing today, I started thinking that the bass was humid, and the strings were too high. So, I measured the height (this thread now has me thinking about it). The G string was 8mm at the end of the fingerboard — but I wanted them lower. Now the G is down to 6mm or so.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Back on topic: When I was playing today, I started thinking that the bass was humid, and the strings were too high. So, I measured the height (this thread no has me thinking about it). The G string was 8mm at the end of the fingerboard — but I wanted them lower. Now the G is down to 6mm or so.

Funny enough, this happened to me at the end of the camp when I numbed my right hand by playing too much and foolishly trying to match intensity with Mike Hyman (aka - "The Honey Badger") at the end of the day. I lowered the strings then, and just measured them: 6.5G, 9.5E. Must be a disturbance in the force?

 

[John Goldsby]

Funny enough, this happened to me at the end of the camp when numbed my right hand by playing too much and foolishly trying to match intensity with Mike Hyman (aka - "The Honey Badger") at the end of the day. I lowered the strings then, and just measured them: 6.5G, 9.5E. Must be a disturbance in the force?

The concerts with you & Hyman were high points of the season for me. I guess it was worth a slightly broken hand