Pros and cons of stacking...

[AngelCrusher]

What do you mean? Do you mean that the OP would be using IEMs to listen to his bass while still carrying the room with his rig? How would he listen to other instruments if his ears would be closed by IEMs?

That doesn't seem to be a practical solution, IMHO.

BTW: the OP's question concerned cab placement, not IEMs...

Yes I mean that. Tons of bands do this now actually. Keeps stage volume under control and allows proper levels to be set on the amps if there is no FOH. It’s very easy to hear other instruments with in ears. There are simple IPad apps you can quickly mix with. Been around for years.

And I understood the OP quite well, thanks.

 

[Zbysek]

Yes I mean that. Tons of bands do this now actually. Keeps stage volume under control and allows proper levels to be set on the amps if there is no FOH. It’s very easy to hear other instruments with in ears. There are simple IPad apps you can quickly mix with. Been around for years.

And I understood the OP quite well, thanks.

I see. Didn't know it was that easy. Thank you for educating me (I mean it).

Still, I understand that it would require micing (at least) drums and (perhaps) guitar combos in order to be able to mix them for IEMs, correct?

I kind of enjoy the simplicity and ease of the minimalistic "plug'n'play" approach in smalish rooms... But that's just me.

 

[Redbrangus]

It’s very easy to hear other instruments with in ears. There are simple IPad apps you can quickly mix with. Been around for years.

So now you have to acquire the signals from all the other sources of audio in the band? Doesn't really sound all that simple to me.

Don't get me wrong, I think IEMs are the greatest thing since sliced bread in larger settings, but it seems a bit too complicated for playing with a small combo in a bar. But as I said in my original post, everyone's got their own thing.

 

[AngelCrusher]

So now you have to acquire the signals from all the other sources of audio in the band? Doesn't really sound all that simple to me.

Don't get me wrong, I think IEMs are the greatest thing since sliced bread in larger settings, but it seems a bit too complicated for playing with a small combo in a bar. But as I said in my original post, everyone's got their own thing.

It’s really not that tough. I have watched small bar combos do this. Is it overkill? I don’t know, thats subjective and based on the skill set and experience of the band. It definitely is a great way to sound as good as possible when there is no PA since everyone will be able to hear things as they want and the amp volumes can be balanced to sound good in the room. I mean, if this is a super small gig at low volumes, I would never have the issue of needing a cab pointed right at my ears in the first place.

But getting signals into your ears at a small gig takes a few extra minutes. DI boxes to guitars that have speaker sims are pretty much standard fair on tour and have been for years. Our guitar players sound to our in ears and to FOH was a redbox. Sounded great. Mic the kick, send a vocal feed and then you have an ambient mic so you can hear everything. It’s really not that tough to do. Since it is a small gig you won’t have an issue hearing everything so it’s not like you need 16+ channels of audio mixed.

Personally if it is a really small gig, I have zero issues with stacking my cabs and playing at reasonable volumes, as long as everyone else is. The only reason I brought up the in ears was because it seems like that solution was not enough for the OP and he needed more.

 

[mikewalker]

Yeah, just to clarify: I have been using IEMs (with the entire group wearing them) for decades now, but this particular rig application is specifically for informal "open-air" stages in very small rooms (100-200 max) without 'proper' PA support. No bass in the PA (PA only amplifying vocals), so there isn't likely to be any suitable monitor mix for in-ears available. Trying to keep it simple as possible...

 

[AngelCrusher]

I see. Didn't know it was that easy. Thank you for educating me (I mean it).

Still, I understand that it would require micing (at least) drums and (perhaps) guitar combos in order to be able to mix them for IEMs, correct?

I kind of enjoy the simplicity and ease of the minimalistic "plug'n'play" approach in smalish rooms... But that's just me.

Well like I said above, I agree with you, I have never needed to aim cabs at my ears and do much more than fire up my amp and go. I have done small gigs with DI only and just used a little stage wedge to hear myself. It’s not optimal, but I have a player’s mindset and I don’t need everything to be 100% perfect in order to play well.

As for mics, I touched on this above but you can drop a mic on the guitar cab or use a Redbox. For drums you just need one mic dropped over the drummer and kick mic. It’s not a full production.

I brought this up as a real solution for the OP who seems to be really focused on certain things. My solution may seem like overkill for a small gig, but it is a very scalable solution. So if you are used to setting this up quickly, imagine how much better it will be when you play a festival or lager shows and can send the FOH DI’s and not be bugging them about not hearing yourself in the wedges, when they just want to get you playing and off the stage.

 

[AngelCrusher]

Yeah, just to clarify: I have been using IEMs (with the entire group wearing them) for decades now, but this particular rig application is specifically for informal "open-air" stages in very small rooms (100-200 max) without 'proper' PA support. No bass in the PA (PA only amplifying vocals), so there isn't likely to be any suitable monitor mix for in-ears available. Trying to keep it simple as possible...

Simple as possible. Drop the cab and play. I have done that so many times I lost track.And I have done similar open air gigs when I was starting up as a kid playing places that really were not suited for bands. I personally never had an issue, so maybe I am not the best resource here. But at least I gave you a Gear Slutty solution as well that will scale for bigger shows.

 

[Wasnex]

IMO, this solves only half of the problem the OP has. Yes, he will be able to hear himself better...but he still needs to carry the (loud) room with his rig as there is no FOH support...



IMO, this is better approach considering the fact that there is no FOH support...

In my experience it depends significantly on the acoustics of the room. If the room is boomy, it is usually better to elevate the cabs and stand closer to them. Putting the speakers on the floor and standing too far away is not going to help anyone under this circumstance. You will blow out the room, it will sound awful, and you won't be able to hear clearly.

If the room is relatively dry, it may be better to stack the cabs on the floor and vary your distance for the desired balance, but it depends on the tone you want. You can still tilt the top speaker back to aim at your ears. If the drivers are relatively close together and the splay is relatively limited, the sound will integrate nicely. I usually still prefer my speakers elevated.

IMHO there is no one size fits all solution. I suggest considering the acoustics and adjusting as appropriate.

 

[Wasnex]

That's surprising for me. I have always felt that my rig lost substantial amount of bottom end as soon as I lifted it off the floor...even if it remained close to the floor.

I haven't done any measurements though...

I think different effects are possibly being conflated here. If you feel the floor moving under you, it has a resonant frequency. IE a wood floor instead of a cement foundation. If you lift the cab you change the distance between the driver and the floor. This changes the wavelength relationship with the floor. Where the the relationship is 1/4 wavelength the sound cancels acoustically, but this does not necessarily decrease the coupling with the floor that is causing the floor to vibrate. I believe the floor vibrations and the frequency response at your ears need to be treated separately, although they are related.

 

[Wasnex]

But back to the point...or something at least vaguely tangentially related... (apologies to the OP for the high-jacking)

I also have not made any measurements, but I can definitely hear an audible difference (less LF response) in my sub arrays (in a largish PA system) if I leave the speakers on the dolly boards. That effect seems more pronounced if they're sitting on an actual floor as opposed to a riser or platform, but that's just my subjective response. But the height difference is only 5 or 6 inches, so that, given the effect @Rick James is describing, would seem to indicate that phase cancellation isn't the cause of what I'm hearing. (I'll have to admit that I hadn't really analyzed the actual physics of the thing...I just developed a hard and fast rule of not using the subs while they're on the dolly boards.) So now I'm wondering if that effect isn't due more to the fact that the subs just aren't as 'rigid' sitting on the wheels...that the enclosure is not as effectively 'pushing back' against the excursion of the drivers. And, in post #2....

I believe what happens is something like this: When the subs are on the floor the sound waves cannot travel under them, so the floor becomes an extension of the baffle. When the subs are slightly elevated the sound can travel under so the baffle is not extended. I believe the same thing happens to a limited degree if you place subs together, but leave 5 or 6 inches between the cabs instead of tight packing them. At high volume I believe you would feel a rush of air between the cabs when the bass drum hits.

 

[Wasnex]

Indeed, the performance of the cabinet as it interacts with it’s surroundings is a non-trivial combination of otherwise straightforward mechanisms.

As an aside, several years back we were discussing stage coupling as it pertains to bleed into the vocal mics. At the time, I was predisposed that mechanical coupling was the primary factor. @Rick James was posting that I was incorrect and that the primary interaction between the cab and stage plate was acoustic. One great thing about Nature is that it always does the same thing, given the same conditions. So, we can study things as long as we can control the variables; and remain objective with the measurements. That’s Science. I disproved my hypothesis. RJ’s hypothesis remains.

My observations ONLY relate to the interaction between the cab and the stage. What actually gets back to the bassist’s ear is a much more complex thing, of which absorption by the stage plate is only a part. I too prefer to place my cabs directly on the stage. I just think the bass sounds best that way. I suspect that what we actually hear is the convolution of reflections from various boundaries, including the stage plate. One way to think about it is that energy is conserved. So, that part of the acoustic wave projected against the stage plate is either absorbed or reflected. If the absorption in the stage plate increases as the cab is initially elevated, then that must be at some cost to the reflection.

Of course, I have ZERO data to support any discussion about the nature of the signal projection as heard by the player; just my own experience bias. AND, certainly there is no “right” form for the projection. So, what I like may be entirely wrong for the next player.

That all may be TL;DR. I put my cab(s) on the stage and live with it. YMMV

Well written and I agree with your observations. But I like the sound with the speakers elevated and aimed at my ears because it allows me to hear a higher ratio of direct sound and also does some subtle modification to the low mids that I like. A lot of bassist don't want to hear the mids and highs directly though. Although this seems odd to me, I accept it.

 

[Lobster11]

Since discovering the wonders of a pair of vertically stacked 2x10s I sometimes wonder why anyone uses anything else. The four 10s are actually more than I really need -- a pair of 1x12s would probably be plenty, volume-wise -- but I love being able to hear myself so well even when standing very close to it. Bonuses include great horizontal dispersion, and being able to put a head on top (often a problem with tilted stands) at nearly eye level for easy access.

I suspect that stacking the 12s on top of a similar-sized box would be about the same height as the two 2x10s and thus have similar advantages, so that's what I would try first. You can always ditch the box at the last minute if you're not happy with it during sound check.

 

[Downunderwonder]

What do you think happens when the driver is 1/8 wavelength above the deck? If 1/4 wavelength is a destructive interference condition, wouldn’t 1/8 wavelength be a constructive interference condition? Also, the dispersion relations would make the actual situation pretty complicated vs a monochromatic artificial signal, such as I used.

And, I believe you are thinking in terms of reflection conditions. Stage plate absorption is further complicated by uncontrolled resonance characteristics.

As I said, simple concepts; but the real picture is somewhat complicated.

The closer it gets to 0/8 the better but 1/8 is not too shabby. If you don't want to get complicated it pays not to be too specific with numbers or people might think they are significant.

 

[Downunderwonder]

A lot of bassist don't want to hear the mids and highs directly though. Although this seems odd to me, I accept it.

I still advise against 4x10 boxes for carrying rooms.

 

[Rick James]

The closer it gets to 0/8 the better but 1/8 is not too shabby.

This chart shows the significant dip that occurs when the direct and reflected waves are 1/2 wavelength/180 degrees apart. That and the multiples of it (540 degrees, 900 degrees, etc.)are the only frequencies where cancellation occurs, with the severity of the dip decreasing at the higher frequencies, because fewer of them reflect off the boundary as they become more directional.

 

[Downunderwonder]

This chart shows the significant dip that occurs when the direct and reflected waves are 1/2 wavelength/180 degrees apart. That and the multiples of it (540 degrees, 900 degrees, etc.)are the only frequencies where cancellation occurs, with the severity of the dip decreasing at the higher frequencies, because fewer of them reflect off the boundary as they become more directional.

Have got one for a set frequency vs distance?

 

[Rick James]

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[Wisebass]

Hi guys

this particular rig application is specifically for informal "open-air" stages in very small rooms

My beer crate post was not a joke (okay let' s say 30?, 40?, 50.... %)

Cheap, availabble (well, at least in Europe) and solid! Get your cab closer to your ear!

And….

In my experience it depends significantly on the acoustics of the room. If the room is boomy, it is usually better to elevate the cabs and stand closer to them.

Nearly always (IME)

That' s why they sell P.A.s on sticks.

And it' s also the reason to have a stage, even when you play in small rooms.

Drums do not only look better but actually sound better on a drum riser!
(even when you have an ugly drummer )


greetings

Wise

 

[Zbysek]

That' s why they sell P.A.s on sticks.

They do. But they don't sell subs on stick. They are usually placed on floor.

IMHO, bass cabinets should be treated more like subs than like PA systems...especially if they need to carry the room.

 

[Zbysek]

But I like the sound with the speakers elevated and aimed at my ears because it allows me to hear a higher ratio of direct sound and also does some subtle modification to the low mids that I like. A lot of bassist don't want to hear the mids and highs directly though.

You made a good point here. I don't enjoy hearing the direct sound out of my cabinet. That' the main difference between us, I guess.