Protecting equipment from bad power.

[Stealth Fighter]

Industrial standard is just a term stemming from the former meaning of DIN, if you by chance came across this sometime. Basically the Norma applied to electric devices stem from Industry, but are mostly applied to households and other everyday applications, too. Nobody here is obliged to install a surge protection of any kind, but they exist.

Also judging by your post security means are handled way differently at your place than mine.

I think we are mostly in agreement. Remember, as stated, I have been out of the business for a long time (at least 30 years), so I'm sure things have changed.

 

[Off-Beat]

It is not amps (current) that jumps open contacts, it is voltage. If the voltage got high enough to burst the TV's into flames my thoughts are that NO amount of protection would have been 100% effective at preventing damage to the other gear. Those transformers step down voltage a lot. (From 4000 to 240/120) If a transformer were to melt it may send the primary input voltage onto the line feeding the building. This would destroy most if not all of the equipment regardless of any installed protection circuitry. Further, the bar needs ALL of the building wiring replaced as it has been exposed to voltages that likely compromised the insulation. That place needs to have every inch of the electrical wiring inspected or replaced before they re-open.

As I already posted there are different classes of surge protection, but the owner of said club would have to apply them if they're available in your country.

 

[Jay Corwin]

I'll jump in the fray here. While I'm no expert, I have one of those fancy degrees in electrical and work in the power industry. I just think some stuff is being thrown around here that is askew.

First, TV's bursting into flames from a transformer failure......that sounds like the story may have grew into a little bit of a tall tail as it passed along. Unless these are really old TV's, and the electrical systems at the bar in question were installed at the dawn of electricity this sounds a little far fetched. Of course it's possible depending on the infrastructure in certain parts of the country, but not likely. Transformer failures are usually catastrophic to the transformer (and close by components), but line protection equipment is designed to prevent massive damage down stream. But again, the infrastructure could be really old so I'm not calling anyone a liar.

The voltage at the pole, even if it is still at 35,000 volts on the line side of the transformer is not equivalent to a lightning strike. Lightening has a lot more energy than that. An off the shelf type of surge suppressor isn't gonna offer much protection against a lightening surge.

Cheap generators will not have clean, regulated AC voltage. Even some of the more pricey ones you get at big box stores wont either. They aren't intended to run high end electronics. They can and will fry stuff. They are intended to run things like sump pumps, not our precious music gear. If it has a gas tank, and a rip cord - don't plug your amp into it.

In summary, there's plenty of gear out there to protect against shoddy bar electrical systems, and surges that are caused by other electrical devices on the same circuit. A quality regulator/suppressor in your rack should protect against most "normal" occurrences. GFCI protection is to protect YOU in the event that what ever you have plugged in has a ground fault.

 

[mjmeche]

Voltage sags or brownouts are just as dangerous!!!

 

[mikeyjm2]

Man, sorry to hear this Big Hoss. This hits close to home for me (figuratively and literally although our gigs are mostly concentrated on the northwest side of Houston at this point). We do try to use basic surge suppressor / power strips for our equipment but this has me wondering if we should go ahead and invest in true power conditioners. Hope everything works out for y'all.

 

[bassmeknik]

I'll jump in the fray here. While I'm no expert, I have one of those fancy degrees in electrical and work in the power industry. I just think some stuff is being thrown around here that is askew.

First, TV's bursting into flames from a transformer failure......that sounds like the story may have grew into a little bit of a tall tail as it passed along. Unless these are really old TV's, and the electrical systems at the bar in question were installed at the dawn of electricity this sounds a little far fetched. Of course it's possible depending on the infrastructure in certain parts of the country, but not likely. Transformer failures are usually catastrophic to the transformer (and close by components), but line protection equipment is designed to prevent massive damage down stream. But again, the infrastructure could be really old so I'm not calling anyone a liar.

The voltage at the pole, even if it is still at 35,000 volts on the line side of the transformer is not equivalent to a lightning strike. Lightening has a lot more energy than that. An off the shelf type of surge suppressor isn't gonna offer much protection against a lightening surge.

Cheap generators will not have clean, regulated AC voltage. Even some of the more pricey ones you get at big box stores wont either. They aren't intended to run high end electronics. They can and will fry stuff. They are intended to run things like sump pumps, not our precious music gear. If it has a gas tank, and a rip cord - don't plug your amp into it.

In summary, there's plenty of gear out there to protect against shoddy bar electrical systems, and surges that are caused by other electrical devices on the same circuit. A quality regulator/suppressor in your rack should protect against most "normal" occurrences. GFCI protection is to protect YOU in the event that what ever you have plugged in has a ground fault.

Thanks for your post sevenyearsdown, I was indeed thinking of a rural backwoods building with ancient wiring IE fuses no breakers, no dedicated ground wire (2 wire power without ground) etc... I bow to your experience, but would still want to see most of the wiring near the service panel before powering that place back up.

Edit; as far as the TV's bursting into flames I agree it would be a very catastrophic event to cause an internal short allowing the high voltage to pass through the transformer, and even more unlikely it would make it past the buildings service panel to an individual device, however I have seen some strange (and spectacular) electrical failures in my 58 years so I cannot say it couldn't happen. I personally was affected by an auto accident near my home several years ago that knocked down a utility pole crossing transformer wires from primary to secondary and blowing out most of my electronics. Every display on all my entertainment system lit up fully at more than normal brightness briefly with strange flashes occurring behind the control panel(s). Then darkness. It was a special experience that will remain with me... We learned about the auto accident and pole/transformer failure the next day. Insurance covered most of the incident.

 

[Jay Corwin]

You're welcome.

I think the reality for most of is that we play at many places with garbage electrical setups for bands. You're plugging into circuits that are tied into lighting, beer signs, fans, coolers, and who knows what else. If the building is a hundred years old, all bets are off! You still see Frankenstein switches for disconnects in some rural places.

It's good thread, and a good recommendation to get something for basic protection of your gear. Most of us can't afford to replace it.

Somewhat related - my group played an outdoor event in August where they had extension cords and surge protectors run all over the place. You name it, it was connected - tent lighting, spot lights, coolers. We had a hell of time getting enough isolation to get our PA from going into protection mode.

 

[Stealth Fighter]

First, TV's bursting into flames from a transformer failure......that sounds like the story may have grew into a little bit of a tall tail as it passed along.

I agree, and I used to build T.V.s up until 1982.

The voltage at the pole, even if it is still at 35,000 volts on the line side of the transformer is not equivalent to a lightning strike.

I think you may be referring to one of my comments. If so, you read much more into it than I intended. I was merely trying to point out that high voltage acts very differently than DC, or 120/240 VAC, etc., and that its behavior is similar to lightening in that it will find some very unexpected paths to ground. Lightening definitely has more energy, as you said.

 

[Muttleybass]

40 years in the business, playing 100+ year old hotels in the prairies, part of the circuit with hundreds of other bands, and I have NEVER heard of this happening ever. Sounds like a pretty freak accident to me. I'd be more worried of a bar catching fire from a cigarette than a freak surge.

I've got the Furman on my amp, more for the plugs than protection, and everything plugs into a surge protected power bar. That's good enough for me. Don't get a lot of lightning here.

 

[s0c9]

Somewhat related - my group played an outdoor event in August where they had extension cords and surge protectors run all over the place. You name it, it was connected - tent lighting, spot lights, coolers. We had a hell of time getting enough isolation to get our PA from going into protection mode.

Let's also keep in mind that much of today's "digital" gear does NOT like voltage fluctuations, especially the brown outs.. so GOOD house power (and appropriate protection) is required if you're using digital gear!

 

[Big Hoss]

Well if the "insurance cost" - in the form of an expensive Furman surge/voltage protector - is the same as the fee to the insurance company? What then? Either you're insured by the gear thay you buy, or insured by a company who replaces your gear at little or no cost.

However, if it's you yourself that's going to be fried, no insurance company or gear in the world can help. Maybe the insurance company will sue the f*ck out of the bar, but it's little help to you, when you're already dead. Perhaps the people that comes on, after the incident, but I doubt it. The bar just have to close down, no one has that amount of money to buy them free for lethal workplace environment. Not a bar like that though.

I tell you, if that happened i Sweden, the bar would've have to close down immediately. Without any further notice, or notice period. Not even a day. The power grid inspections here on all restaurants and buildings, no matter how shady or underground, are quite Stalinesque. If you can proof that it's the bars fault, which it is, since TV's fumed, and gear that didn't belong to you fumed, all guests/staff in the bar was jeopardized. Since we became members of EU, all flats, apartment and houses had to be converted to only have grounded outlets in the walls. No ungrounded outlets are allowed anymore no matter how old ancient the house is. And while they were at it, they changed out a few other things as well.

I do believe you are assigning blame where it does not belong. The transformer that failed, causing the massive loss to personal property, and yes risk to human life, was not the property of the bar, or the owner of the building, which I believe was probably Landrys Holdings Corp, the transformer that failed (exploded), I believe was about halfway down the block, up on the power transmission pole. That is 100% the property, and responsibility of Texas New Mexico Power Company.

In order to obtain an occupancy permit to operate by the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission) the bar had to have a full inspection, including verification that it meets the NEC (National Electric Code), as well as fire code, national, and city building code, and due to its proximity to the Gulf of Mexico, Texas Windstorm code (Hurricane resistance code). Part of the NEC requires that all

In this circumstance, blaming the bar, or even the property owner is misplaced. The fault lies 100% with the power distribution grid operator. Unfortunately in many parts of the U.S., the grid owners / operators are legally protected by the state, this serves a variety of purposes, I am sure at least one of those is legitimate, some others probably not so much.

Now on the issue of financial recovery, the band that suffered the loss, they were "employed on contract" to the bar, so as I understand the law, and I am NOT a lawyer, but old enough to have seen enough of these cases go through from friends, colleagues etc... to know that the bar owner would be responsible to reimburse the band for their losses, the bar owner would likely have to make a claim against their business insurance, which in turn would pay out, and make a claim for damages against the power grid operator.

As far as the safety aspect is concerned, the bar did their due dilligence. The issue, again is with the power grid operator. The owners / operators of the power grid failed to maintain their equipment in a safe and reliable manner, causing risk to human life and property damage. They are the organization that needs to be held liable, but we go back to the legal protection issue, and I seriously doubt that they will be held liable for their negligence.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

You still see Frankenstein switches for disconnects in some rural places.

I thought I was the only one who called them that.
They're still in use in Thailand too.

I gave a guy all the stuff he needed to do a proper install at my mother-in-law's house, including the breakers.

I got there to find out he had installed one of those damn big ol' throw switches & was LIVID!

 

[Big Hoss]

40 years in the business, playing 100+ year old hotels in the prairies, part of the circuit with hundreds of other bands, and I have NEVER heard of this happening ever. Sounds like a pretty freak accident to me. I'd be more worried of a bar catching fire from a cigarette than a freak surge.

I've got the Furman on my amp, more for the plugs than protection, and everything plugs into a surge protected power bar. That's good enough for me. Don't get a lot of lightning here.

I found it odd, but looking at my county newspaper, it appears that transformers within 1 mile of the gulf tend to blow with some frequency. I suspect it is exposure to high salinity content very humid air we get on the Texas coast, combined with infrequent / improper inspections from TNMP and it happens. What scares the living excrement out of me isn't the bars being impacted, but the petrochemical plants in Texas City, Pasadena, La Porte etc... that get clobbered by these... The safety risks are mind numbing.

 

[Big Hoss]

Let's also keep in mind that much of today's "digital" gear does NOT like voltage fluctuations, especially the brown outs.. so GOOD house power (and appropriate protection) is required if you're using digital gear!

That was one of the reasons behind thinking about running UPSes between Class D amps, and a generator.

 

[Eminor3rd]

My understanding is that even your run-of-the-mill power conditioner/surge protector will simply destroy itself in the event of that much power, and so your gear would be fine as the connection would be severed.

 

[mikeyjm2]

What scares the living excrement out of me isn't the bars being impacted, but the petrochemical plants in Texas City, Pasadena, La Porte etc... that get clobbered by these... The safety risks are mind numbing.

I really don't know squat about electricity distribution at that level, but my guess would be that the plants get a much higher grade of service than say, your typical bar or commercial installation. I've not heard of a plant explosion caused by that particular thing (doesn't mean it hasn't - I just don't know of it). Ironically enough, a plant I worked at years ago had a large explosion attributed to static charge generated by gas flow in a purge line on a waste tank.

 

[Big Hoss]

My understanding is that even your run-of-the-mill power conditioner/surge protector will simply destroy itself in the event of that much power, and so your gear would be fine as the connection would be severed.

I am MORE than good with melting say a $100.00 UPS vs a $600.00 or more amp, in the case of the Orange Tube head the guitarist was using, how much do Orange Guitar heads go for?

 

[Jay Corwin]

As far as the safety aspect is concerned, the bar did their due dilligence. The issue, again is with the power grid operator. The owners / operators of the power grid failed to maintain their equipment in a safe and reliable manner, causing risk to human life and property damage. They are the organization that needs to be held liable, but we go back to the legal protection issue, and I seriously doubt that they will be held liable for their negligence.

Maintenance is not necessarily the cause of electrical system failures. Something as simple as a faulty insulator could cause that type of issue on a transformer.

Think of it this way:

You purchase a new vehicle. You change the fluids religiously in your vehicle. You schedule all of the manufacturer recommended service procedures at the appropriate mileages. Then after 30,000 miles a head gasket fails due to poor manufacturing process, your car is overheating, and spilling liquids all over your freshly epoxied garage floor.

The maintenance was fine right? A defective part projected to last much longer than it did failed, and it had nothing to do with how well you took care of the car.

My point being that there are times when unforeseen factors occur that cause some of these problems. It doesn't mean that who ever the power distribution company in Texas is was negligent.

 

[Big Hoss]

I'll jump in the fray here. While I'm no expert, I have one of those fancy degrees in electrical and work in the power industry. I just think some stuff is being thrown around here that is askew.

First, TV's bursting into flames from a transformer failure......that sounds like the story may have grew into a little bit of a tall tail as it passed along. Unless these are really old TV's, and the electrical systems at the bar in question were installed at the dawn of electricity this sounds a little far fetched. Of course it's possible depending on the infrastructure in certain parts of the country, but not likely. Transformer failures are usually catastrophic to the transformer (and close by components), but line protection equipment is designed to prevent massive damage down stream. But again, the infrastructure could be really old so I'm not calling anyone a liar.

The voltage at the pole, even if it is still at 35,000 volts on the line side of the transformer is not equivalent to a lightning strike. Lightening has a lot more energy than that. An off the shelf type of surge suppressor isn't gonna offer much protection against a lightening surge.

Cheap generators will not have clean, regulated AC voltage. Even some of the more pricey ones you get at big box stores wont either. They aren't intended to run high end electronics. They can and will fry stuff. They are intended to run things like sump pumps, not our precious music gear. If it has a gas tank, and a rip cord - don't plug your amp into it.

In summary, there's plenty of gear out there to protect against shoddy bar electrical systems, and surges that are caused by other electrical devices on the same circuit. A quality regulator/suppressor in your rack should protect against most "normal" occurrences. GFCI protection is to protect YOU in the event that what ever you have plugged in has a ground fault.

Again, I do NOT claim to have witnessed the event personally, so you could be correct. I have however seen consumer electronics literally ignite after an electrical failure of some sort. In the case that I witnessed, a Dell I believe it was the XPS line, mid tower engineering workstation. I do not think the issue there was grid power, but rather component failure on the workstation in question.

And you bring me back to the generator power question.

I know that most reasonable quality UPSes do regulate AC voltage. But what would a band that is hired to do an off the grid gig, like for example Burning Man, need to insure that any generator they buy, rent, or get provided by the venue operator doesn't fry their gear?

I am FAR more concerned with blowing equipment with generator power than with a transformer blow out, And I don't give half a rats behind, if there is lighting within reasonable proximity, my gear gets unplugged until the danger passes. I don't know about other areas, but several close by venues actually INSIST the band disconnect if there is an active electrical storm within 6 miles. I think it has something to do with insurance liability. I have seen bands in at least 3 local bars, after the manager goes up to the stage and talks to the singer, usually while they are playing, stop playing, tell everyone they are taking a break while the storm is overhead, and unplug from power.

 

[AltGrendel]

I am an electrical contractor in Arizona and I have seen the wrath of lightning strikes, utility equipment failure etc.
Alot of people here will tell you that A rack surge suppressor will do nothing. I tend to disagree. But hey, it's pretty obvious which members think they know it all about everything on this forum.

I run a monster 2500 which had a 2775 joule rating, most don't even spec this rating. Which usually means it's low.

What it comes down to is the Joule rating, the higher the number the faster it "clamps" and protects the load connected.
And I like them also because there's plenty of outlets to plug your rack equipment into with one switch to turn everything on at once.
I think I spent about $150 to protect $5000 in gear. I Say it's a pretty good investment

Ok, so Sweetwater says the Monster 2500 is no longer available, what would you recommend as an alternative?